|
|
Go to page [Previous] 1~2~3 | ||||||||||
bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-08-13 23:23, videoman wrote: I think you missed the point. Or perhaps just did not read my posts. Had you read my post you would have read where I asked a question that no one has answered. That question was how many books is needed to lean palming? Bottom dealing? Second dealing? Etc.? Well how many? Palming is in Erdnase, and the stars of magic. The original question is not even a complete question because there are many kinds of palms. There is the top palm. one handed top palm. The Erdnase bottom palm, the gamblers palm. There are also action palms where the palm is covered by some sort of action like shuffling or cutting the deck as in my own double cut palm. So by not knowing just what kind of routine the person that started this thread wants to do with the palm. I think it is kind of moot as to what kind of learning material should be suggested. In the stars of magic there is a routine Vernon did called the travelers. This has three great palms that are used in a 4 signed cards to pockets routine. Then there is Homing card that uses palming. Also Cavorting aces uses and teaches a shuffle palm. I have never been a fan of the learn the move or technique without a reason - I like to learn a move to use it in a routine that I have already chosen. Because having a use for the move makes learning the move have context and a theater of action in which the move will be used. But hey, if this is just a suggest this or that thread and that is what you want to do. Suggest books and DVDs and video downloads just for the sake of suggestion. Go for it - have fun! Quote:
On 2013-08-13 23:23, videoman wrote: I have never given up on a single move because I don't learn moves without context. In other words I have a routine constructed that I am going to use the move in. That way I have a theater of context in which the move is learned - and this makes uniformity of action - that helps bring the move into "performance theater" - rather than a hit or miss method. Quote:
On 2013-08-13 23:23, videoman wrote: Well, I guess that is fine if one is collecting moves, technique, books, video's, DVDs, etc. And doing magic as a hobby. However if one is a performer and making a living off magic. If one really wants to learn palming I still suggest Erdnase, and the stars of magic. And work out the moves in the context of a routine. However if one is doing magic as a hobby - they can buy and collect as much as they think they might need and enjoy the hobby of magic. Cheers!
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
|||||||||
Vlad_77 Inner circle The Netherlands 5829 Posts |
Glenn,
Again, with all due respect I must disagree and really this isn't a pro versus hobbyist thing. But let's use an analogy from other fields. Does a professional astronomer restrict herself to just reading Hawking or Tyson-deGrasse? No. Does an historian restrict herself to just reading Niall Ferguson, Adam Hochschild, or Barbara Tuchman? No. I don't have a V.I.P. after my name and virtually nobody knows me Glenn, but I am a professional magician and I have never restricted myself to one or two sources and I never will. It works for you Glenn and that is fine. But I think it's unfair and a tad elitist to make this artificial demarcation between pros and hobbyists. And I know that I need not get into a long post about how some of the greatest magicians in the art are NOT professionals. But what the heck, I'll name a few. Ed Marlo (machinist by trade), Leo Leipzig (route salesman for Planter's peanuts), Rusduck (police officer), John Bannon (attorney), Simon Aronson (attorney), Ken Krenzel, PhD (psychologist). There are more of course but you are an intelligent man and you get the point. But I'll answer your question of how many resources are needed to learn something? My answer: as many as it takes. We all learn differently and at different paces. This is not a "Vlad" opinion; it is a fact. I can see however your irritation about the threads that ask for he "best." I hate those threads too. But read what the OP asks please. The OP asks for good books on the subject; the OP did not ask for the "best." You participated and guess what? You have, like everyone else here, added to our knowledge base regardless of pro, semi-pro, or hobbyist; we are all magicians. I fail to the need to make categorizations Glenn, but that's just me and I will not presume to speak for others. But, in your last post to me you stated that you don't PM because that is not "magicians helping magicians." It is but I am not going to debate it with you Glenn. But can you not see that this thread is an instance of magicians helping magicians? Please, for one moment, forget the pro versus hobbyist paradigm and ask yourself why the participants of a thread choose to share resources. By the way, thank you for your kind words about my contributions to The Café. I am still learning and I will quote a master of the art, Stewart Judah. Judah stated that he had been in magic for over sixty years but had only scratched the surface. He stated further that scratching had been fun. I love that quote. Stewart Judah is a master of our beloved art and after sixty years, magic was still new to him with so much to explore. I want to feel that way about everything I learn when/if I ever reach Judah's age. Best, Vlad |
|||||||||
bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-08-15 12:58, Vlad_77 wrote: Vlad_77 with all due respect I did not make it a pro vs. hobbyist disagreement. But it is interesting that you seem to have done so. Basic - a pro magician has a different mind set and reason to learn magic than a hobby magician. Do they not? Let us consider the pro and his reason to learn and do magic. The reason is to earn money and pay the bills. It is an income - a business. For the pro the trick must work - they must arrive at the event on time - they must load and unload props. And do the show in whatever performing conditions the place may have and however the audience is seated. Basic - hobby they can learn and do magic when they feel like it under whatever performing conditions they care to do a trick. Or not perform and they can perform almost whenever they want. Now doesn't that alone change the mind set on which a palming technique is learned? When I was working in a magic shop - knowing if a magician was a non-performer and did it as a hobby was helpful in which tricks and books would be shown and sold. Just because a pro is looking for something to add to his show. And a hobby guy (not all of them but many) they might be looking for just something to add to their collection. Quote:
Thinking it is unfair and a tad elitist to make this artificial demarcation between pros and hobbyists is your opinion of what I said above. I just said an opinion of what just about all the magic dealers have said about pro's and hobby magicians for a long time. This includes Jay Marshall at Magic Inc. Ken Brooke said something like it on an audio tape. I could go on and on. Quote:
On 2013-08-15 12:58, Vlad_77 wrote: Ed Marlo performed in many Chicago bars and restaurants as an income. I knew ED and at one time he did magic pro on and off for years. Also as a side line. This is just FYI. And seeing your list of people as "legends" in magic. They would not be on my list - because my list would have performers on it. Not lecture magicians that write books and do video's and conventions for a magicians audience and market. Quote:
On 2013-08-15 12:58, Vlad_77 wrote: Well then - in my case the answer would be 2. But then that would depend on the student wouldn't it? Quote:
On 2013-08-15 12:58, Vlad_77 wrote: The op asked but did not give any info on what or why they wanted to learn. I gave my opinion based on my point of view. I don't need stacks of books on palming. And I really don't need stacks of books on a move that I was already using successfully after I had learned it and was "using it". At least that is my opinion coming from my point of view. Thanks for posting Val because you bring up some interesting things and ideas. Cheers!
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
|||||||||
Vlad_77 Inner circle The Netherlands 5829 Posts |
Glenn,
In no particular order: 1. Thanks for the discussion. If you re-read your post you will see that you have made the distinction between pros and hobbyists. 2. The people I listed while not full time performers were/are nonetheless great magicians. Do you really think that John Bannon's material for example is highly prized because he just lectures and markets? John Bannon creates powerful magic with performance and impact of effect as its prime focus. I've never seen Mr. Bannon lecture and yet in my reprtoire, his magic is among the most hard hitting I do. J.K. Hartman's magic is superb and very few of us know anything about him except that he is not a full time performer, yet, his magic was prized and recognized BY big name performers. As an aside but this does have relevance to the discussion, in astronomy, the "hobbyists" are the astronomers who make most of the visual discoveries in the discipline and professional astronomers have stated that without the amateurs, observational astronomy would not have progressed as rapidly as it has. But, lists are lists and highly subjective, so I suppose I shouldn't mention two more masters, Milt Kort and Stewart James because they won't make your list. 3. The OP is in fact did ask. The topic of this thread seems to indicate that as well as the original message. 4. I don't believe that performing full time versus whenever a person desires has any correlation to the mindset of performing. This is related to point two. Yes, there is a difference insofar as the GOOD professional's selection of material. But the practice of performing well is equally applicable to all magicians or else the act is nothing more than a presentation of puzzles. 5. Yes, I too have worked for magic shops and yes, we assessed the skill set of the buyer if we did not know him. In fact, magic shops offer choices and good shops offer suggestions and that is exactly what you did. How is this any different? The OP is asking about books. Change the scene to a brick and mortar shop. I am guessing by your argument that you would state that Erdnase is THE way to go. You have sound reasons and I am not arguing those reasons nor am I arguing against Erdnase. I am also not at all implying that I was a better demonstrator than you Glenn; I have no idea who was "better" nor is it important. Our approaches would be different however. I would suggest choices based upon all the information I could glean from the buyer. Again, each of us learns in different ways and at different rates. Granted, books allow you the luxury of freezing time to paraphrase Denny Haney. I do prefer books too Glenn, but I also would just as easily recommend a video, hence my recommendation in this thread of Glenn Morphew's splendid work. In fact you agree with me when you state "But that would depend on the student, wouldn't it?" In the end, we could each go on and on and we are certainly not helping the OP nor the community. You quoted Jay Marshall and Ken Brooke and those are two quite formidable names. I could play the quote game as well, from dealers that would refute both Marshall and Brooke, but there is no use in it. The fact remains that you participated in the thread with a good suggestion, then made in MY opinion - and I stress it is my opinion alone - a rather distasteful remark about the thread's purpose. For myself, I have found this thread very helpful so at least one magician was helped. Best to you Glenn and again thank you for your gracious words. It was a fun discussion and perhaps if you are so inclined, we can continue the discussion in the appropriate area of The Café. Namaste, Vlad |
|||||||||
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The workers » » Any real good books on palming. (0 Likes) | ||||||||||
Go to page [Previous] 1~2~3 |
[ Top of Page ] |
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2024 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved. This page was created in 0.08 seconds requiring 5 database queries. |
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic. > Privacy Statement < |