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gdw
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On 2012-01-09 17:42, critter wrote:
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but if I see a grand piano about to land on you, I might consider it (assuming I'm not going to simply get myself crushed in your place.)


I'd take a piano for you.


Thanks Critter.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
LobowolfXXX
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Critter's pretty bad-azzzzzzz. If a piano fell on him, I'd feel bad for the piano.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
gdw
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On 2012-01-09 16:52, LobowolfXXX wrote:
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On 2012-01-09 15:49, gdw wrote:
Lobo, as I've said before, there's a difference between what you have a "right" to do, what you have a "right" to force, and a responsibility to do.

There's also a difference between what you have a right to do, and what you are willing to do. If you are willing to do something you don't neccessarily have a "right" to do, you do so accepting the consequences. The problem comes, when having the state do it, when people say it's worth the "price," they seem to completely forget about the "price" part.

I have no "right" to push you, but if I see a grand piano about to land on you, I might consider it (assuming I'm not going to simply get myself crushed in your place.). I do so because I am willing to. Bring willing to means I am accepting the risk. Not (just) the risk of being crushed, but the risk of violating your rights. If you, being grateful for my actions, are willing to forgive the otherwise relatively minor violation of your rights, as I imagine most would, hence my willingness to push you, then you alleviate me of the risk. Forgiving me the "price" if you will.

Applying this to parenting, well, if my daughter, when she's older, and independant, wants to hold me accountable for feeding her, pulling her out of on coming traffic, and educating her, then so be it.


Then, to get back to the original issue, I would say that some people believe that there is a right to decide certain things for people who are unable to appreciate the consequences of their actions; i.e. they would say, contrary to your position, that you DO have the right to prevent your daughter from playing in traffic.

Alternatively, though, the answer is nobody has the "right" to force a child to be educated, but some of us are "willing" to do so (to a certain age).


Some people say that, sure, and some people say that they have the "right" to decide which race deserves to live. What's your point.

Who's to say which people can't "appreciate" the consequences? These same people want to control what substances people can put in their body. Who's to say I can or can't appreciate the consequences of my diet? Should someone be able to force me to eat certain foods? Not that they don't effectively do this with regulations and subsidies. There's a reason there's corn products in virtually everything we eat.

So, the alternate you reiterate, yeah, that would seem to be the only objective and consistent option/reality.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
LobowolfXXX
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On 2012-01-09 19:49, gdw wrote:
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On 2012-01-09 16:52, LobowolfXXX wrote:
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On 2012-01-09 15:49, gdw wrote:
Lobo, as I've said before, there's a difference between what you have a "right" to do, what you have a "right" to force, and a responsibility to do.

There's also a difference between what you have a right to do, and what you are willing to do. If you are willing to do something you don't neccessarily have a "right" to do, you do so accepting the consequences. The problem comes, when having the state do it, when people say it's worth the "price," they seem to completely forget about the "price" part.

I have no "right" to push you, but if I see a grand piano about to land on you, I might consider it (assuming I'm not going to simply get myself crushed in your place.). I do so because I am willing to. Bring willing to means I am accepting the risk. Not (just) the risk of being crushed, but the risk of violating your rights. If you, being grateful for my actions, are willing to forgive the otherwise relatively minor violation of your rights, as I imagine most would, hence my willingness to push you, then you alleviate me of the risk. Forgiving me the "price" if you will.

Applying this to parenting, well, if my daughter, when she's older, and independant, wants to hold me accountable for feeding her, pulling her out of on coming traffic, and educating her, then so be it.


Then, to get back to the original issue, I would say that some people believe that there is a right to decide certain things for people who are unable to appreciate the consequences of their actions; i.e. they would say, contrary to your position, that you DO have the right to prevent your daughter from playing in traffic.

Alternatively, though, the answer is nobody has the "right" to force a child to be educated, but some of us are "willing" to do so (to a certain age).


Some people say that, sure, and some people say that they have the "right" to decide which race deserves to live. What's your point.

Who's to say which people can't "appreciate" the consequences? These same people want to control what substances people can put in their body. Who's to say I can or can't appreciate the consequences of my diet? Should someone be able to force me to eat certain foods? Not that they don't effectively do this with regulations and subsidies. There's a reason there's corn products in virtually everything we eat.

So, the alternate you reiterate, yeah, that would seem to be the only objective and consistent option/reality.


Well, apparently YOU, for one, take it upon yourself to say that some (logical definition: 'at least one' i.e. your daughter) people can't appreciate the consequences, because I have absolutely no doubt that you take it upon yourself to do things on her behalf that would violate your strict construction of autonomy interests.

You've alluded to "responsibilities" and "obligations"; what foists those upon you? "Who's to say" that you have the obligation to feed your daughter? Until what age? While I do believe in objective morality, there's absolutely no verification for it. That doesn't mean it's WRONG, but it does mean that it's irrational. So your appeal to your own personal code of rights as transcendent, or somehow objective, is really nothing more than an assertion of your own worldview.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
gdw
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"While I do believe in objective morality, there's absolutely no verification for it. That doesn't mean it's WRONG, but it does mean that it's irrational."

That sounds a bit contradictory.

As for me and my daughter, as I said, I may make, and "enforce" those decisions, that doesn't mean I have a "right" to. As for my responsibilities and obligations, the come from my choices. There are no unchosen obligations.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
LobowolfXXX
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On 2012-01-09 20:32, gdw wrote:
"While I do believe in objective morality, there's absolutely no verification for it. That doesn't mean it's WRONG, but it does mean that it's irrational."

That sounds a bit contradictory.

As for me and my daughter, as I said, I may make, and "enforce" those decisions, that doesn't mean I have a "right" to. As for my responsibilities and obligations, the come from my choices. There are no unchosen obligations.


It's not at all contradictory. Lots of unprovable things are true. I can put together a good argument as to why murder is wrong, and I may be able to persuade someone that it is, but I can't "prove" murder is wrong, and someone who thinks it isn't wrong can't "prove" his case, either. It's irrational; it's metaphysics. Nevertheless, murder either is, or is not, wrong.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Woland
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It's wrong.
mastermindreader
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If those generals and officers who attempted to assassinate Hitler had succeeded, are you saying their act would have been wrong? It was clearly an attempted murder complete with premeditation and deliberation.
LobowolfXXX
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Sam Wiezak would have killed Hitler.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
critter
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Double Hitler point!
It's been quite a w'heil.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
gdw
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Bob, they certainly didn't have a right to, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't have done the "right" thing, if you will, or at least the best option they had.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
mastermindreader
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I see what you are saying, gdw, but I was responding to Woland's "It's wrong" response to Lobo's statement that whether murder is right or wrong is a metaphysical argument.
gdw
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As was I, sort of. Well, I was responding to your post, but addressing theirs I guess.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
mastermindreader
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On 2012-01-09 22:52, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Sam Wiezak would have killed Hitler.


Yes. (The Dead Zone is one of my favorite books and films)
LobowolfXXX
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On 2012-01-09 23:21, mastermindreader wrote:
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On 2012-01-09 22:52, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Sam Wiezak would have killed Hitler.


Yes. (The Dead Zone is one of my favorite books and films)


Likewise. King has written a few of my favorite books and/or movies. Also on the short list are Hearts in Atlantis (book); (Rita Hayworth and) The Shawshank Redemption (both); and Stand By Me/The Body (both).
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
mastermindreader
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On 2012-01-09 23:33, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Likewise. King has written a few of my favorite books and/or movies. Also on the short list are Hearts in Atlantis (book); (Rita Hayworth and) The Shawshank Redemption (both); and Stand By Me/The Body (both).


Just finished reading his latest 11/22/63. It, too, is on topic with this discussion as it poses the question of what would have happened if you could have gone back in time and killed Oswald before he shot Kennedy.

Excellent book, especially for the incredible attention to details of life in America between 1958 and 1963. (The atmosphere in Dallas prior to the assassination is disturbingly like much of what still exists today.)
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I liked 11/22/63. My favorite King in quite a while. I was actually expecting a different ending, but I think King's worked just as well (though I didn't like it as much at first). The book/movie that I liked a lot but still think I could have dramatically improved the ending of (with minimal change) is American Beauty.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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Bob, ever read John Irving's "A Prayer for Owen Meany"?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
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No. I only read his "The World According to Garp" and "The Cider House Rules."

Is it good? Do you recommend it?

Re the ending of 11/22/63 - King notes in his afterwords that it was his son who came up with the ending. I was at first surprised that it wasn't a typical King ending. I mean, how often does a Stephen King book leave you with a happy tear in your eye?

Best-

Bob
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A Prayer for Owen Meany is the best book I've read. If you're interested in my 11/22/63 ending, send a pm and let me know where I can drop you a brief note. I don't want to post too much in the way of spoilers here.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
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