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mastermindreader
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PM sent. I'll go to Amazon and get a copy of the Irving book on your recommendation.

Thanks,

Bob
LobowolfXXX
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I think you'll like it a lot. Bear with it if the first 50 or so start out slow...it picks up.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
tommy
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Quote:
On 2012-01-09 23:01, gdw wrote:
Bob, they certainly didn't have a right to, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't have done the "right" thing, if you will, or at least the best option they had.


Judge by cause not effect.

They certainly had a right to self defence in law, as Hitler was killing his own people, then his own people had a right to kill him. A reasonable jury given the facts would have found them not guilty of killing the little Quisling.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
LobowolfXXX
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Tommy, you're always prone to such flights of wild fancy. Now, where on earth would anyone find a reasonable jury? Or TWO lawyers who would allow it to be seated?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
tommy
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Smile

Since they did not kill him we will never know I fancy.


Can the fundamental principles of nature ever be wrong?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
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Quote:
Can the fundamental principles of nature ever be wrong?


Not as I understand you to use the term.

But neither can they be proven.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
tommy
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Lets assume that nature is always right and say the best and shortest road towards knowledge of truth is nature. Then ask what does nature teach us about rights? Does it teach us that might is right? Does it teach us that rights do not exist? Does nature teach us that rights are illusions, flights of fancy?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Woland
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Excellent book, especially for the incredible attention to details of life in America between 1958 and 1963. (The atmosphere in Dallas prior to the assassination is disturbingly like much of what still exists today.)


JFK was killed by a communist. Remember? The "atmosphere in Dallas" is a red herring.

W.
tommy
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Well there's an example of how illusury your rights are.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Woland
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Bob, just noticed your question as to whether the killing of Hitler would have been justified. I think it would have been. There is such a thing as justifiable homicide - and that is not murder. Remember, the Ten Commandments read in the original, "Do not murder," not "Do not kill."

W.
kambiz
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Quote:
On 2012-01-10 03:51, tommy wrote:
Lets assume that nature is always right and say the best and shortest road towards knowledge of truth is nature. Then ask what does nature teach us about rights? Does it teach us that might is right? Does it teach us that rights do not exist? Does nature teach us that rights are illusions, flights of fancy?


Sorry Tommy, there is a huge flaw in the argument that human behaviour should be dictated by the laws of nature.

The human being is far above the intellect-lacking natural world, and should conduct his/her life as such....the human intellect is the basis behind the incredible potential that humans possess to create an ever-advancing civilization that lives in harmony with its natural environment, not the other way around...

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
kambiz
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Quote:
On 2012-01-09 22:50, mastermindreader wrote:
If those generals and officers who attempted to assassinate Hitler had succeeded, are you saying their act would have been wrong? It was clearly an attempted murder complete with premeditation and deliberation.


In the future, tribunals, international courts and a global commonwealth will be responsible for making globally unifying decisions of this nature (by consultative means amongst representatives of all nations) which will assure everyone that certain killings are a morally right thing to do. Independent decisions made by any particular individual to kill anyone is morally wrong, even Hitler IMHO.

Decisions of a nature that involves killing someone cannot be left to an individual, this is a remnant of a previous, now disintegrating, system of governance....the world is moving towards an order whereby decisions that may involve the loss of human life is done through a collaborative, consultative and globally unifying approach.

We see seeds of this system at play today, with the alliances that the US is forming for decisions that have global ramifications. It will, through processes of reflection and learning, organically grow from is embryonic condition today into a very powerful system that will unify nations and provide justice never before seen in the world....

Just some of my psychic predictions for the next 20 years Smile

Ignore me...

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
tommy
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The intellect-lacking natural world Smile
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
gdw
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Kam, if such decisions are morally wrong for the individual, they do not suddenly become moral by the inclusion of more individuals.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
tommy
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If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Woland
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This is a very good point, gdw:

Quote:
if such decisions are morally wrong for the individual, they do not suddenly become moral by the inclusion of more individuals


If something is morally wrong for one person to do, it is just as wrong when 2 or 3 gather together to do it, and just as wrong when 1,000,000 people or more vote to do it.

As Walter Williams (an economist with a lot more common sense than Paul Krugman, in my estimation) has pointed out, “No matter how worthy the cause, it is robbery, theft, and injustice to confiscate the property of one person and give it to another to whom it does not belong.” So for example, if I see a poor, sick, elderly homeless woman on the street, it is wrong for me to stick up the next well-dressed passerby I see, and rob him to buy her food, medicines, and a place to live. It is just as wrong for millions of people to vote to empower their armed representatives to enforce the same confiscation. Adding the consent of even an overwhelming majority does not suddenly transform a crime into an unblemished benevolence.

W.
tommy
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Not a fan of Robin Hood I take it?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
kambiz
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Guys this is a matter of justice being carried out for the betterment of civilization.

It can be argued that it is morally wrong to incarcerate a murderer for life, but not so if he was genuinely guilty of the crime.

Matters of justice which have global ramifications will eventually be carried out through a collaborative and consultative venture to ensure a just outcome is ascertained. Naturally if an option is available to avoid killing someone then I am sure this will be explored by the collaboration.

Cases such as those like Hitler, are now being dealt with similar to Saddam Hussains downfall, and although his situation was dealt with FAR from perfectly, it still reflected the organic development of global decisions on how to deal with such despots, namely, it was a collaborative effort. This collaboration will continue to grow and develop more and more, and the learnings and outcomes it reaps will eventually and gradually develop into a more and more perfect system, making it's judicial decision-making more likely to be correct and thereby unifying.

Hope that makes sense Smile

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
Woland
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Kam,

The usual standard in the Anglosphere is that a jury of 12 is sufficient for a just verdict in criminal cases. As a State Trooper once told me, "It is better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6." But I don't know what you mean by " collaborative and consultative venture to ensure a just outcome is ascertained." I would hope that in matters concerning our national defense, whether of the USA, the UK, or Oz, our sovereign national governments will make the call. I don't think we need the assenting vote of an assorted 100 or so undemocratic kleptocracies in order to ratify a legitimate act of war. And I don't care what communist tyrannies think about it, either.

I enjoy the legend of Robin Hood as much as anyone, I guess, but robbery is still robbery. It really doesn't matter what you do with the money you've robbed, it's still wrong, and bienfaisance is not a defense.

W.
kambiz
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W,

Firstly, all kleptocracies and communism as a whole will eventually perish. I can't say whether it will be 100 states or 20, or 10, but whatever the number of representatives, all countries (which will be democratically run) will agree to the number and support any decisions made wholeheartedly.

Secondly, this part of the thread relates to how individuals such as Hitler should be dealt with in the modern world, namely, individuals who are on a path of genocide for example. This was not in relation to matters of national security, with which I agree with you, our national governments are quite capable of defending themselves. But even in this situation, if China decided to invade Australia tomorrow, I'm sure there will be a collaborative effort by many nations to assist Australia in defending itself, and assuredly a just outcome will prevail.

I guess collaboration means working together with other nations for the common good of the world. What is the common good for the world will be decided through a consultative process amongst the democratic nations of the world...

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
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