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LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2012-01-10 08:07, gdw wrote:
Kam, if such decisions are morally wrong for the individual, they do not suddenly become moral by the inclusion of more individuals.

Not to speak for Kam, but I didn't read his post as suggesting that the decision will "become right," but rather that it is more likely that decisions that are right (inherently) will be reached by having more parties involved in the moral reasoning process (in "close" cases). Which is not to say that I agree with the point. I certainly *dis*agree with the point that as a result "everyone" will be assured of the moral correctness of the decision. In fact, I doubt such a process would change many minds at all.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
tommy
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Is it wrong to steal back what the elite have stolen from the people?


I hope so. Smile
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
LobowolfXXX
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On 2012-01-10 03:51, tommy wrote:
Lets assume that nature is always right and say the best and shortest road towards knowledge of truth is nature. Then ask what does nature teach us about rights? Does it teach us that might is right? Does it teach us that rights do not exist? Does nature teach us that rights are illusions, flights of fancy?


I think that if we relied on nature as our guide, we'd have a far different conception of "rights" that would approximate what you suggest here - that they either don't exist, or are just expressions of or tied to "might."

Beyond "for the sake of argument," though, I disagree with the premise that nature is a reliable (or necessary or useful) model from which to learn in this regard.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
critter
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On 2012-01-10 06:48, Woland wrote:
Bob, just noticed your question as to whether the killing of Hitler would have been justified. I think it would have been. There is such a thing as justifiable homicide - and that is not murder. Remember, the Ten Commandments read in the original, "Do not murder," not "Do not kill."

W.


Amazing that "Do not murder" is spelled the same way in the original language as it is in English Smile
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
LobowolfXXX
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Not as amazing as finding out that killing in self-defense is wrong.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
gdw
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Quote:
On 2012-01-10 10:11, tommy wrote:
Not a fan of Robin Hood I take it?


Not recalling what Robin Hood actually "advocated" I take it?
The commonly said "stealing from the rich to give to the poor" is a gross misrepresentation.

Robin Hood took back what had been stolen. As Woland expanded upon above, what's wrong for the individual does not suddenly become "right" for the majority, or any number. To take someone else's properly by force, or threat of force, is USUALLY called stealing, but when a certain group does it, often under the claim of "for the greater good," it's suddenly called "taxing" and magically becomes "moral.". In fact it's also suddenly considered immoral to not hand over your property to gun backed robbe-I'm sorry, tax collectors.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
gdw
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Quote:
On 2012-01-10 09:58, Woland wrote:
This is a very good point, gdw:

Quote:
if such decisions are morally wrong for the individual, they do not suddenly become moral by the inclusion of more individuals


If something is morally wrong for one person to do, it is just as wrong when 2 or 3 gather together to do it, and just as wrong when 1,000,000 people or more vote to do it.

As Walter Williams (an economist with a lot more common sense than Paul Krugman, in my estimation) has pointed out, “No matter how worthy the cause, it is robbery, theft, and injustice to confiscate the property of one person and give it to another to whom it does not belong.” So for example, if I see a poor, sick, elderly homeless woman on the street, it is wrong for me to stick up the next well-dressed passerby I see, and rob him to buy her food, medicines, and a place to live. It is just as wrong for millions of people to vote to empower their armed representatives to enforce the same confiscation. Adding the consent of even an overwhelming majority does not suddenly transform a crime into an unblemished benevolence.

W.


You've just sumerized the foundation of my philosophy Woland.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
gdw
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On 2012-01-10 10:25, kambiz wrote:
Guys this is a matter of justice being carried out for the betterment of civilization.

It can be argued that it is morally wrong to incarcerate a murderer for life, but not so if he was genuinely guilty of the crime.

Matters of justice which have global ramifications will eventually be carried out through a collaborative and consultative venture to ensure a just outcome is ascertained. Naturally if an option is available to avoid killing someone then I am sure this will be explored by the collaboration.

Cases such as those like Hitler, are now being dealt with similar to Saddam Hussains downfall, and although his situation was dealt with FAR from perfectly, it still reflected the organic development of global decisions on how to deal with such despots, namely, it was a collaborative effort. This collaboration will continue to grow and develop more and more, and the learnings and outcomes it reaps will eventually and gradually develop into a more and more perfect system, making it's judicial decision-making more likely to be correct and thereby unifying.

Hope that makes sense Smile

Kam


Kam, are you ignoring that this approach is exactly what lead to Hitler, and a country eager to welcome him?
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
critter
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Hitler point! Missed Kam's original post. Belated Hitler point!
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
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Woland
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This particular meandering by-thread began with questioning whether it was wrong for Claus von Stauffenberg and others to try to kill Adolf Hitler. I think certainly not. I introduced the example of robbery a la Robin Hood in order to provide a more mundane or quotidian example of how a criminal behavior is not transformed into a virtuous good deed by the fact that many people, even millions of people, are joined together in its execution.

critter, your point about using one English translation to counter another English translation is a good one, but I think that you will find that most Biblical scholars agree that the commandment is "Do Not Murder," and not "Do Not Kill." In my opinion, a lot of the moral confusion we encounter when people discuss capital punishment, self-defense, and just war comes from having been taught a mis-translated and incorrect statement that they erroneously believe to be the word of God. Just saying.

W.
critter
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My point wasn't really a serious one.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
Woland
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But it has serious implications. How do we know what we think we know, after all? Do we know everything in translation? That is, is all of our knowledge mediated by other consciousnesses?
tommy
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Nature tells us that rights are related to consciousness. Rocks, plants, animals, Humans, each do not have the same rights. The rock has less rights than the plant, the plant less than the animal, the animal less than the human, even though we all came out of this old world of ours and are made of the same stuff. Each has a an amount of rights in relation to the amount of consciousness it has. If a more advanced entities arrived on earth then they would have more rights than you human beings. Obviously, I the magician have more rights than the muggle.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
landmark
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What "Nature," if anything, tells us, is that the mechanisms of life are very diverse, resist easy generalization, and that there are many different solutions to the problems of survival.

The more Humans that have input and communicate with each other about how to solve the problem of survival for this particular species, the better chance we have at arriving at something that might actually work.
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My points are very well supplemented by landmark's comments above....we can never generalize a given situation, a consultative process must be implemented to resolve any problem, whether it has familial, neighbourhood, community, national or international implications.

I won't get into how God fits into all this, my ideas are somewhat radical and will open a possible can of worms....

Kam
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And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
kambiz
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Quote:
On 2012-01-10 12:46, gdw wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-01-10 10:25, kambiz wrote:
Guys this is a matter of justice being carried out for the betterment of civilization.

It can be argued that it is morally wrong to incarcerate a murderer for life, but not so if he was genuinely guilty of the crime.

Matters of justice which have global ramifications will eventually be carried out through a collaborative and consultative venture to ensure a just outcome is ascertained. Naturally if an option is available to avoid killing someone then I am sure this will be explored by the collaboration.

Cases such as those like Hitler, are now being dealt with similar to Saddam Hussains downfall, and although his situation was dealt with FAR from perfectly, it still reflected the organic development of global decisions on how to deal with such despots, namely, it was a collaborative effort. This collaboration will continue to grow and develop more and more, and the learnings and outcomes it reaps will eventually and gradually develop into a more and more perfect system, making it's judicial decision-making more likely to be correct and thereby unifying.

Hope that makes sense Smile

Kam


Kam, are you ignoring that this approach is exactly what lead to Hitler, and a country eager to welcome him?


Yes I acknowledge that, and its also somewhat similar to how the Ayatollah Khomeini came to power (much to the demise of my family's and co-religious members freedom and welfare and lives)

However, as I have said, the consciousness of the globe as a single entity is organically maturing with time, we are slowly developing an understanding of what impact an act in Africa can have on the whole world (for example). What happened with Hitler and the Ayatollah are as a resilt of the immaturity in understanding the glabal import of such decisions. Secondly, there was no real consultative process with the decision of Hitler to come into power, there was no genuine equality in that process, nor was there purity of intent with its intended outcome. All of these factors are important for the process to be running perfectly and only with time will these things develop.....

There is a global community that implements these ideas extremenly well (although it is still not perfect, but its way ahead of any other global system) and it is working hard with the UN to implement these principles globally...


Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
Woland
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The UN is one of the most corrupt institutions in the history of the world. What the UN is working hard to implement is a totalitarian, socialist world government in which individual rights and national sovereignty are extinguished.
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And Martian cylinders will start crashing on Earth any day now.
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The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth.
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tommy
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And it shall come to pass that the Martian cylinders shall contain our rights and new commandments?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
LobowolfXXX
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On 2012-01-10 22:32, Steve_Mollett wrote:
And Martian cylinders will start crashing on Earth any day now.


Is this in response to the Statement about the UN, or the one about the globe having a consciousness as a single entity?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
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