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Bill Nuvo
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Quote:
On 2008-03-01 16:02, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2008-03-01 15:53, mrbilldentertainer wrote:
Prisons are often a refuge for some. As magicsanta pointed out, they give free medical (US). They also give you free food. They also give you free counseling services, job prep, education/training (often just minimal levels, but it still is there) and for some...err...networking opportunities. Don't forget, the rent is also free.

The study is actually a little flawed not taking in account the time of year (start of 2008). Many homeless and poor peoples will commit minor crimes to get a 2-3 month sentence to be somewhere out of the cold winter. The numbers may be correct (or nearly), but the reasoning may not.

It's been known for a while that prison is not necessarily a deterrent. I believe that the above reason's I give are part of that problem (how big or small a part I can't begin to speculate).

Day 1
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Hard to argue with "necessarily," but prison is, in fact, a deterrent. What usually happens, though, is that stiffer sentences for one type of crime result in a decrease in incidents of that crime, and not a switch to law-abiding behavior, but rather a switch to another type of crime.


I agree that it has a deterrent effect to some degree. A lot of crimes though do happen because of circumstances one has put oneself into and are ill-equipped to get oneself out. There is a great big gray area with limits of self-defense that has put some people behind bars. Law is not an exact science.

Day 1
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MagicSanta
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Tim, they did do a follow up to Scared Straight. I don't remember the details but they had one story where one of the kids was in prison and his buddy is one of the scared straight 'instructors' who was released only to become an instant criminal again. A number of the kids were either dead or in prison, some were arrested within days of the visit to the prison. Some of the kids went straight but that happens with or without intervention, some turn 18 and quit because it means real jail. Of course they claim the ones who didn't go to prison were victories due to the prison thing and the other ones needed just another visit to straighten out etc.. The only thing I liked was seeing them drop character. One of the toughest cons is out and he came across as a very nice guy who was the only one who really seemed to take part as an effort to really help kids. The rest kind of were just looking for something to do (of the instructors). Oh, they did bring other kids in for the newer version which is more politically correct and softer and less effective. I think the kids were thinking of raping the convicts.
balducci
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Quote:
On 2008-03-01 16:04, Timothy Drake wrote:
I'd be curious to see a " Scared Straight" 20 years later tv special to see how many of the troubled youth avoided future trouble. Anyone remember that show that created such a still so long ago?

Apparently there were 3 sequels:

Scared Straight! Another Story (1980), Scared Straight! 10 Years Later (1987), and (on MTV and UPN) Scared Straight! 20 Years Later (1999).

I suppose you can google them all to find out more.

(Day 1)
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
The Drake
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Thanks for the update guys. I'll see if I can locate them.

Best,

Tim

Day 1
balducci
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Former Canadian Lord Conrad Black signed into U.S. prison on Monday.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/st......NewsAt11

Even if he was (for the sake of argument) railroaded, I suspect most of Canada said 'Good Riddance'.

(Day 3)
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
MagicSanta
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He's only going to prison cuz he's Black.
abercrombe
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I don't know what all this has to do with magic but, I had a son that was in the wrong place at the wrong time,with a poorchoice of friend. He did nothing wrong but was guilty by association. He spent 12 years in various prisons before his death at 34.I can't tell you how many miles we drove, hours we spent visiting and fighting for his release and I can't tell you how much our hearts were broken. Politicians trying to improve their careers will convict innocent people and not feel any compassion.
Best
Abe
balducci
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Quote:
On 2008-04-16 21:02, abercrombe wrote:

Politicians trying to improve their careers will convict innocent people and not feel any compassion.

Very true, and I'm very sorry to hear about your son's misfortune.

Many, but of course not all, politicians also love to mouth the words that they are 'tough on crime' as it is an easy way to win friends and votes.

Then, when and if their friends are ever convicted, they can always pardon and / or make excuses for them. This happens with many politicians of all stripes.

Anyway, I'm also sorry to hear that your son passed away at such a young age. How long ago was that?
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
kcg5
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The recidivism rate in this country is off the charts. how many people are in jail for so called victim-less crimes? And please don't get me started on the death penalty. I know that I am from california, but I have always disagreed with capitol punishment. we are the only "civilized" nation that still puts people to death! I do not want my state, or country, to kill people in my name. I am a citizen, I pay taxes, and its done in my name.


Dostoevsky once said, "The degree of civilization in a society can be judged by entering its prisons."


kevin
Nobody expects the spanish inquisition!!!!!



"History will be kind to me, as I intend to write it"- Sir Winston Churchill
LobowolfXXX
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On 2008-04-16 22:23, kcg5 wrote:
And please don't get me started on the death penalty. I know that I am from california, but I have always disagreed with capitol punishment. we are the only "civilized" nation that still puts people to death! I do not want my state, or country, to kill people in my name. I am a citizen, I pay taxes, and its done in my name.


As another California taxpayer, I wish they'd use the death penalty more often.

We could always pass a law that before tax dollars were spent, 100% of the people in the taxed jurisdiction approve of it...that would drop the tax rate to about 0%...
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
kcg5
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So kill everyone on death row to save money? not much saved. and I think so taxes would be spent, taxes, schools,ect.
Nobody expects the spanish inquisition!!!!!



"History will be kind to me, as I intend to write it"- Sir Winston Churchill
kcg5
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With 669 death row inmates, out of 173,000, it isn't much. highest prison pop. in the nation, with also highest recidivism rate. the death penalty does not deter people.

kevin

lobo, good comment on the movie thing.
Nobody expects the spanish inquisition!!!!!



"History will be kind to me, as I intend to write it"- Sir Winston Churchill
boynextdoor
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My community is supposed to have the highest concentration of sex offenders in California. Or maybe the nation. And the same for meth labs. And child/domestic abuse.

*shrugs* But maybe they're just trying to attract tourists.
Trapeze above the Grand Canyon. Be impressed.
kregg
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3 Million criminals behind bars means 3 million less crimes on the street.
POOF!
JRob
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I can think of at least one more who should be, but they are not going to search Puerto Rico and go through the extradition process over a felony DUI
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kcg5
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On 2008-04-17 03:07, boynextdoor wrote:
My community is supposed to have the highest concentration of sex offenders in California. Or maybe the nation. And the same for meth labs. And child/domestic abuse.

*shrugs* But maybe they're just trying to attract tourists.



norcal?
Nobody expects the spanish inquisition!!!!!



"History will be kind to me, as I intend to write it"- Sir Winston Churchill
abercrombe
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It will be 4 years come May 22nd and no parent should ever outlive their children. What I think about DAs, Public Defenders and Judges is there are a lot of good honest ones but they sometimes work together to to accomplish their agenda. Most people don't realize If you fire your attorney he can talk to the DA about everything you said in confidence to him. The law isn't equal for everyone. The DA went on to be elected State Assembyman. He ran on a platform of 100% conviction rate. He never lost a case because he could usually scare people into taking a plea bargin. The interrogating officers badgered him for hours a a time and when he asked to see an attorney, the DA came in and said he was an attorney. He left out the fact he was the prosecutor. The law says that whatever my son told him could not be used in courtbut whatever he learned from that information is admissable in court. They know how to get around the system. Well, that's more than I wanted to get into and if you are guilty by association, then you will share in the punishment and I have seen enough of the insides of prisons to know that people suffer at the hands of others. You do whatever it takes to survive.
I think the real inmates are running the asylum.
Abe
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Abe,

I'm so sorry to hear this horrible story. I've always thought our legal system was fair and was designed to keep this type of thing from happening. I guess I would look at it differently if I were in your shoes. You hear a story like that and you think, "and they let OJ go free?" Smile
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LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2008-04-17 02:53, kcg5 wrote:
With 669 death row inmates, out of 173,000, it isn't much. highest prison pop. in the nation, with also highest recidivism rate. the death penalty does not deter people.

kevin

lobo, good comment on the movie thing.


I didn't say, and didn't mean to imply, that my opinion on the issue has anything to do with saving money.

I think referring to any current crime statistics to claim that the death penalty doesn't have a deterrent effect is specious, at best. Hundreds of murders are committed just in Los Angeles each year, yet very few executions take place statewide, and those that do take place years, often decades, after the crimes were committed. No consequence would show a measurable deterrent effect if it only applied to 1 out of 500 people who committed the crime, and was applied 20 years later.

To assess a detterent effect, there would have be a reasonable probability that the potential criminal would actually be given the proposed punishment, and within a reasonable timeframe. That being said, I think there's actually strong circumstantial evidence that captial punishment can/does have a deterrent effect.

First, when the death penalty finally does roll around for those few who receive it as a setence, the vast majority of them do everything in their power to avoid execution, including filing every conceivable motion, telling the police about other crimes and locations of other bodies, etc. It's also a regular course of action for murder suspects to plead to life in prison without parole in exchange for no death penalty. This strongly suggests that the death penalty is considered a greater punishment than life in prison, and it's fairly clear (and obvious and intuitive) from analysis of crime statistics that stronger punishments have greater deterrent effects (for example, raising a sentence of maximum imprisonment to 10 years from 5 years has a measurable deterrent effect on lesser crimes, though what usually happens is that the criminals switch to OTHER crimes, i.e. carjackers become burglars). The reason you may not see an apparent deterrent effect is because people who commit murder don't really think they're going to get the death penalty, and so it doesn't weigh into their considerations, and 99.9% of the time they're right.

A second piece of evidence that suggests to me that the death penalty has or could have an appreciable deterrent effect is that it's known that gangs will often have underaged gang members carry out hits specifically because they're not death penalty eligible.

We can only speculate as to what the situation would be like if the death penalty were applied more often, but personally, I can't believe that if everyone considering murder knew that if he were convicted, he'd be put to death within 3 years, SOME of them wouldn't do it. If they passed a law tomorrow that everyone who committed murder on Tuesday would be executed, but nobody else would, I guarantee you'd see fewer murders committed on Tuesday. Somewhat less silly - If you engaged in a criminal activity in which occasionally you "needed" to commit murder, e.g. carjacking or bank robbery, and you lived near the border of California and Arizona, and California had no death penalty and Arizona executed all convicted murderers within 3 years, wouldn't you do most of your work in California? Of course you would.

Additionally, the deterrent effect is far from the only justfication for criminal punishment. Another is incapacitation. One study of a few thousand convicted murderers showed that 9% had prior homicide convictions. If you're keeping score at home, that's at least a few hundred people murdered by other people who were convicted of murder and kept alive. Say what you will about the deterrent effect, but capital punishment has a great incapacitation effect; the recidivism rate for convicted murderers is 0.0%. Or, less flippantly, I'm sure at least a few people have been convicted of murder already this year. I have no idea whether any of them will commit murder again, and neither do you. But we both know that executed murderer Stanley "Tookie" Williams will never kill anyone again. Life imprisonment isn't the same thing; people get murdered in prison, and people break out of prison.

The recidivism rate also proves too much, in a sense. If you point to the recidivism rate (which is, as I've noted, highly debatable at its very best) to say that capital punishment doesn't work, so we shouldn't have it, then by that logic, we shouldn't have prisons, either. People whose punishment for various crimes is incarceration also have a high recidivism rate. Should we just let the convicted bank robber go, since "prison doesn't work"?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2008-04-17 16:29, abercrombe wrote:
Most people don't realize If you fire your attorney he can talk to the DA about everything you said in confidence to him.



This is not true. The duty of confidentially continues indefinitely. It is not limited to the duration of the attorney-client relationship.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
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