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Tony Iacoviello
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I'm glad all of my family is part of the 99%

Tony
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2012-01-08 16:50, gdw wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-01-08 11:41, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-01-08 09:01, gdw wrote:
Lobo, I'm not a fan of school, but I am a fan of education. My point is that I shouldn't be thrown in a cage IF I didn't make her go back. Are you saying you support using force against me because of such? Because I disagree with what you view as "best" for schooling?


What about her autonomy right to not go? Are you saying that you thhe right to force her if you and she disagree?


Where did you get that from? That sounds much more like what you are advocating.
The law suggests that I should be thrown in a cage if I don't force her to go.

That's not to say I can't encorage and incentivise her. Unfortunately, statistic often seem to think that the threat of force, ie making a law, is the only way to "incentivise" someone. When your only tool is a hammer ...
Quite often the use of that analogy is pure projection.


It's a yes/no question. If she doesn't want to go to school, do you have the right to force her to go?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
tommy
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No. You have no rights. Ye must do as ye are told and if ye are told to force her to go, that is what ye will do, whether ye or she likes it or not.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2012-01-08 20:27, tommy wrote:
No. You have no rights. Ye must do as ye are told and if ye are told to force her to go, that is what ye will do, whether ye or she likes it or not.


Well, we may not have any rights, but at least there's beer.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
mastermindreader
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Sometimes I wish that the parents of some of our forum posters had forced them to go to school.

:eek:
tommy
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Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
mastermindreader
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Quote:
On 2012-01-08 20:40, tommy wrote:
Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die


I approach every day with that philosophy, because I know that one day I'll be right.
tommy
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Your roots are showing
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Woland
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We do have rights, tommy. But it is up to us to secure and defend them.
rockwall
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Maybe it's only tommy who has no rights and he's projecting.
gdw
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Absolutely not, you do not have the "right" to force her.
Why would you? What gives you, or anyone, such a right?
That doesn't mean you wouldn't have a responsibility, or obligation, to.

Rights, if they are inherent, are no more, and no less, than you would have alone on an otherwise deserted island, and such that the addition of an other person, who would obviously possess same rights, would not result in a conflict, or violation, of one an others rights.

Rights are neither gained, nor increased, by possession of a badge, nor any other object, nor by vote, nor proximity, nor number/population.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2012-01-08 21:41, gdw wrote:
Absolutely not, you do not have the "right" to force her.
Why would you? What gives you, or anyone, such a right?
That doesn't mean you wouldn't have a responsibility, or obligation, to.

Rights, if they are inherent, are no more, and no less, than you would have alone on an otherwise deserted island, and such that the addition of an other person, who would obviously possess same rights, would not result in a conflict, or violation, of one an others rights.

Rights are neither gained, nor increased, by possession of a badge, nor any other object, nor by vote, nor proximity, nor number/population.


I think it's a non-sequitur to say that you have an obligation to do something that you don't have a right to do.

What might give one an obligation (let alone a right) to would be that some people (in particular very young children) are too ignorant to make informed decisions in their rational self-interest.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Woland
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Parents have the right and the responsibility to educate their children. This is the law of nature. Parents may delegate that right to the schools, who act as the parents' agent. But children do not belong to the State, and it should be the parents' option to educate their children, themselves.
LobowolfXXX
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I'm trying to ascertain whether or not GDW believes that parents have the right to educate children who do not wish to be educated.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
mastermindreader
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Quote:
On 2012-01-08 22:43, LobowolfXXX wrote:
I'm trying to ascertain whether or not GDW believes that parents have the right to educate children who do not wish to be educated.


I'm trying to figure that out too. He seems to say that the parent only has the right to ask the child to go and to reason with them, but appears to be saying that if the kid really doesn't want to go he/she cannot be forced.

At least that's what he appears to be saying.
kambiz
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Here in Australia, there is no legal obligation to send your children to school.

As a parent, it is your right, in my opinion, to decide on how you wish your child to be educated, however, it is your obligation to ensure that they are educated well. Now, the definition of "well" is open to debate, what constitutes good education and what constitutes bad education is a wrangle that will go on through the ages.

I feel it only rational that the state assesses the legitimacy of the educational means of the parent before granting full educational ownership to them for any particualr child....

A good balance between academio and spiritual education is the only means by which the incarcerated numbers in the US can be reduced. Those 2 types of education are essential to the constant development of the child as an individual, yet the correct approaches to these two types of education are exactly opposite to one another.

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
mastermindreader
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Kam-

But that's not what GDW seems to be talking about. He appears to be saying that it is the kid's right to refuse to be educated if he/she doesn't want to be.
kambiz
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Quote:
On 2012-01-08 16:50, gdw wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-01-08 11:41, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-01-08 09:01, gdw wrote:
Lobo, I'm not a fan of school, but I am a fan of education. My point is that I shouldn't be thrown in a cage IF I didn't make her go back. Are you saying you support using force against me because of such? Because I disagree with what you view as "best" for schooling?


What about her autonomy right to not go? Are you saying that you thhe right to force her if you and she disagree?


Where did you get that from? That sounds much more like what you are advocating.
The law suggests that I should be thrown in a cage if I don't force her to go.

That's not to say I can't encorage and incentivise her. Unfortunately, statistic often seem to think that the threat of force, ie making a law, is the only way to "incentivise" someone. When your only tool is a hammer ...
Quite often the use of that analogy is pure projection.



Bob, I sensed the opposite, from the quotes above, I read that he doesn't want to throw his kids to school, but he is a fan of education, which implies he does home-schooling, a very popular concept here in Australia...

I guess only GDW can fully clarify Smile

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
mastermindreader
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You're right, he might well mean that. But he also said, "That's not to say I can't encourage and incentivise her."

That's what confuses me because it implies that while he can encourage her to go to school, he can't force her.

GDW- Did you mean to imply that a child shouldn't be forced to go to school or be otherwise educated if he/she doesn't want to? It's really not clear from what you wrote.

Best-

Bob
tommy
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If something as simple as that is not clear to you, then all can say is, thank God I was not forced to go to your schools.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
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