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kambiz
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Quote:
On 2012-01-09 04:16, tommy wrote:
If something as simple as that is not clear to you, then all can say is, thank God I was not forced to go to your schools.


Tommy, with respect, you really need to work hard on improving your courtesy, politeness, respect, kindness, friendliness, humility, patience and gentleness, with that very comment....

I hope you don't speak to your loved ones like that

I personally cannot imagine even speaking to my enemies like that

:)

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
LobowolfXXX
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Don't mind Tommy...I'm sure that those who know him in person have had plenty of time to get used to his "ultimate insider" bit. It grows on you.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
kambiz
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Smile

takes a lot to offend me Lobowolf Smile just don't think Bob deserved that personally....

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
Woland
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Kam, why do you think "the State" should have the power to determine if the parents' educational choices for their children are "legitimate?" Shouldn't it be the citizens, who have the power to determine if the State's programs are "legitimate?" Note that there are asylum/refugee cases pending in the United States, for home-schoolers from Europe:

Quote:
In a case with international ramifications, Immigration Judge Lawrence O. Burman granted the political asylum application of a German homeschooling family. The Romeikes are Christians from Bissinggen, Germany, who fled persecution in August 2008 to seek political asylum in the United States. The request was granted January 26 after a hearing was held in Memphis, Tennessee, on January 21.

“We can’t expect every country to follow our constitution,” said Judge Burman. “The world might be a better place if it did. However, the rights being violated here are basic human rights that no country has a right to violate.”


And in almost every American liberal's utopian paradise, Sweden -

Quote:
Christer and Annie Johansson, a Christian homeschooling family, are in the unimaginable position of permanently losing custody of their only child, seven-year-old Dominic Johansson, simply because they homeschool.

Swedish authorities boarded a plane bound for India in June of this year (Annie's home country) and removed Dominic from his parents. They did not have a warrant nor have they charged the Johanssons with a crime; they simply did not believe homeschooling is an appropriate way to raise a child and insist the government raise Dominic.

"This is one of the most disgraceful abuses of power we have ever witnessed," said HSLDA attorney Mike Donnelly. "The Swedish government is exercising its authority under the U.N. Convention on the Rights of the Child to unnecessarily break up this family."

The suffering being imposed on the Johanssons is hard to imagine. Visitation was limited to two hours per week but now Swedish social services have curtailed that to one hour every fifth week and no visit at all for Christmas because the social workers will be on vacation.


The State is a creation of individuals, to which they may delegate some portion of their rights and powers; since we no longer subscribe to the Divine Right of Kings in the Great Chain of Being, the State has no independent source of power on its own.

Just saying.

W.
kambiz
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Hey Woland, I totally respect your thoughts and agree with them, however I think you may have misread my comment.

My point was that the state should try and assess the educational MEANS ( not legitimacy) of the parents and look at providing assistance if the need is there. Not all parents can afford the books, pens, paper etc that are essential for the basics of education.

Secondly, I think the state has a responsibility to ensure that a child is not being reared purely for terrorism purposes (as an extreme example) and that the education is for the positive development of a child that can become a healthy contributor to global society.

What constitutes a healthy contributor to global society? Well this will become more and more evident and apparent as humanity evolves and advances more toward a unified and organically advancing unit, which is where we are heading whether we like it or not, in my humble opinion....

I hope that clarifies some of my thoughts Smile

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
Woland
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It does. Thanks.
gdw
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Man, there are a lot of hammers in this thread.

Lobo, there are a LOT of adults who are simply too ignorant to be using drugs, does that mean anyone has a "right" to force them not too?
I have a responsibility to feed my children, does that mean I have the right to FORCE feed them?

Quote:
On 2012-01-08 22:29, Woland wrote:
Parents have the right and the responsibility to educate their children. This is the law of nature. Parents may delegate that right to the schools, who act as the parents' agent. But children do not belong to the State, and it should be the parents' option to educate their children, themselves.


I'm fine with parents educating their children. Education rocks, school sucks. Individuals can certainly delegate that duty to whom ever they like. If they delegate that to someone else, should that other then suddenly have the right to cage the parent when their kid doesn't show up?
Also, individuals can delegate this got themselves, they have no right to delegate this for others.

Not saying that was what you were saying Woland, however your post provided a good basis for my rant Smile

As for what my wife and I will doing with regards to our daughter's education, that remains to be seen. We may, sadly, turn to public schooling, however that doesn't mean that will be the source of her education. I'd say it's hardly education for the majority.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
kambiz
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"The forces at work on the hearts and minds of the young, are pernicious indeed. Exhortations to remain pure and chaste and strive for excellence in all their undertakings will only succeed to a limited degree in helping them to resist these forces. What needs to be appreciated in this respect is the extent to which young minds are affected by the choices parents make for their own lives, when, no matter how unintentionally, no matter how innocently, such choices condone the passions of the world—its admiration for power, its adoration of status, its love of luxuries, its attachment to frivolous pursuits, its glorification of violence, and its obsession with self-gratification. It must be realized that the isolation and despair from which so many suffer are products of an environment ruled by an all-pervasive materialism"

As I've previously pointed out, the state education system is lamentably defective, globally. The child's education is only complete when the parents are intimately involved in the educational process for the child as well.

Just my two cents

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
mastermindreader
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Quote:
On 2012-01-09 04:16, tommy wrote:
If something as simple as that is not clear to you, then all can say is, thank God I was not forced to go to your schools.


Apparently you weren't forced to go to any schools at all.
gdw
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Too true Kam.

The sad thing, with the state taking over responsibilities for people, like "educating" their children, most people don't take much interest in guiding that process. And why should they? The government is going to make everything ok.

Many like to blame the parents for the failing education of children, but the state removed all natural incentive for them to get involved in the first place.

When government takes over responsibilities, how can we expect anything but people being less responsible?
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
mastermindreader
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I'd really like to help Tommy out but, unfortunately, I read minds - I don't improve them.
gdw
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Heres a wonderful story where another government "official" seems to have adapted the schooling mentality, treating an entire court room like a class of children.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-10784_3-9824710-7.html

At least there would seem to be some accountability for him in this case.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2012-01-09 08:40, gdw wrote:
Man, there are a lot of hammers in this thread.

Lobo, there are a LOT of adults who are simply too ignorant to be using drugs, does that mean anyone has a "right" to force them not too?
I have a responsibility to feed my children, does that mean I have the right to FORCE feed them?


Is there anything you have the right to force her to do? Will you let her die of some disease or infection if she decides she doesn't want a shot, or medicine tastes yucky? Will you physically restrain her from running out into the middle of the street, or just let her go where she wants?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2012-01-09 10:51, mastermindreader wrote:
I'd really like to help Tommy out but, unfortunately, I read minds - I don't improve them.


"they" have programmed you to believe it needs improving.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
tommy
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Image


In the land of the blind
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Woland
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I am not sure if it was Marshall McLuhan, Stewart Brand, or Ken Kesey who pointed out that in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is NOT king, he is taken to be an hallucinating lunatic.
gdw
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Lobo, as I've said before, there's a difference between what you have a "right" to do, what you have a "right" to force, and a responsibility to do.

There's also a difference between what you have a right to do, and what you are willing to do. If you are willing to do something you don't neccessarily have a "right" to do, you do so accepting the consequences. The problem comes, when having the state do it, when people say it's worth the "price," they seem to completely forget about the "price" part.

I have no "right" to push you, but if I see a grand piano about to land on you, I might consider it (assuming I'm not going to simply get myself crushed in your place.). I do so because I am willing to. Bring willing to means I am accepting the risk. Not (just) the risk of being crushed, but the risk of violating your rights. If you, being grateful for my actions, are willing to forgive the otherwise relatively minor violation of your rights, as I imagine most would, hence my willingness to push you, then you alleviate me of the risk. Forgiving me the "price" if you will.

Applying this to parenting, well, if my daughter, when she's older, and independant, wants to hold me accountable for feeding her, pulling her out of on coming traffic, and educating her, then so be it.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
tommy
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I see a clinic full of cynics
Who want to twist the peoples’ wrist
They’re watching every move we make
We’re all included on the list.

The lunatics have taken over the asylum.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2012-01-09 15:49, gdw wrote:
Lobo, as I've said before, there's a difference between what you have a "right" to do, what you have a "right" to force, and a responsibility to do.

There's also a difference between what you have a right to do, and what you are willing to do. If you are willing to do something you don't neccessarily have a "right" to do, you do so accepting the consequences. The problem comes, when having the state do it, when people say it's worth the "price," they seem to completely forget about the "price" part.

I have no "right" to push you, but if I see a grand piano about to land on you, I might consider it (assuming I'm not going to simply get myself crushed in your place.). I do so because I am willing to. Bring willing to means I am accepting the risk. Not (just) the risk of being crushed, but the risk of violating your rights. If you, being grateful for my actions, are willing to forgive the otherwise relatively minor violation of your rights, as I imagine most would, hence my willingness to push you, then you alleviate me of the risk. Forgiving me the "price" if you will.

Applying this to parenting, well, if my daughter, when she's older, and independant, wants to hold me accountable for feeding her, pulling her out of on coming traffic, and educating her, then so be it.


Then, to get back to the original issue, I would say that some people believe that there is a right to decide certain things for people who are unable to appreciate the consequences of their actions; i.e. they would say, contrary to your position, that you DO have the right to prevent your daughter from playing in traffic.

Alternatively, though, the answer is nobody has the "right" to force a child to be educated, but some of us are "willing" to do so (to a certain age).
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
critter
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Quote:
but if I see a grand piano about to land on you, I might consider it (assuming I'm not going to simply get myself crushed in your place.)


I'd take a piano for you.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
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