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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Penny for your thoughts » » Why We Should Be Careful (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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chris_johnson_au
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This originally started with my nephew sending me an e-mail to do a Google search on "headline prediction". He'd been working on some bits and pieces for my website to optimise searches, etc. Mine came up at number 4.

While I was checking the results, I came across this article.

http://www.inoculatedmind.com/2006/06/08......nce-guy/

Hopefully it makes some of us think before we post something into this forum.

Perhaps you might want to think again before you answer the questions that come up such as, "Hey, guys! I have to do a prediction effect next week, what's the best one out there?"
Chris Johnson
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Virungan
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Or "Can anyone tell me the source for that thing Derren brown does etc"...

Fortunately in this case- I passed out from boredom about a quarter way into that particular article- and suspect only a hard-core nerd would have reached the bottom of the page..
Smile When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth...Smile
Kevin Cook
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So your saying that perhaps we shouldn't be constantly discussing mentalism on forums easily accessed by the public? Forums like this one??

But how else are armchair performers going to show off their knowledge? Going out and performing isn't an option. So how? Tell me that hmm? C'mon guys, back me up here.
magicusb
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At the very least do not put it in Penny For Your Thoughts, but in Inner Secrets, and even so try to be as subtle and use code words that only those "in the know" might understand. Or use phrases like N*** W*****. Might help a little
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Virungan
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I guess he was suggesting a measure of care with language and direct information..

Say for example- you could refer to ..let me think of the first thing that comes to mind for some reason... a great big pimple... as "an unsightly blemish" rather than a "monster pulsating zit volcano"..

Something like that...
Smile When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth...Smile
kinesis
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The Science Guy needs to get a life. Adrian Saint is doing a job, he's a mentalist, an entertainer. An entertainer that obviously did a good job with that prediction. Why try and debunk him when all he did was entertain, give the guy a break Science Guy!!! I'm a skeptic and a mentalist, it's not hard to spot someone making claims for entertainment purposes. Personally I think Science Guy is just a sad skeptic on a weak ego trip.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein






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LLL
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Quote:
On 2008-03-03 07:20, Virungan wrote:
I guess he was suggesting a measure of care with language and direct information..

Say for example- you could refer to ..let me think of the first thing that comes to mind for some reason... a great big pimple... as "an unsightly blemish" rather than a "monster pulsating zit volcano"..

Something like that...


pmsl
The basic tool for the manipulation of reality is the manipulation of words. If you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use the words.
xersekis
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Couple of defintions:

A philosophical position in which people choose to critically examine whether the knowledge and perceptions that they have are actually true, and whether or not one can ever be said to have absolutely true knowledge
http://www.iheu.org/glossary
An individual who holds that true knowledge, or knowledge in a particular area, is uncertain. Often incorrectly used as a synonym for "debunker." See also, "debunker."
hissofasp.com/glossary.htm
someone who habitually doubts accepted beliefs
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
MDantes
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Phhhshhphhh!

What is SO secret and coded about N*** W*****?

Everyone knows that means Nutt Wacker... Jeez.

Maybe we should type in morse code;)

Just a thought.

Dot dot dash dash pause dot dot dot
(MD)

Ps...Agreed though
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magicman02
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Hey guys, I know this performer who the article is about. He did a great job with the publicity of this event. This guy who wrote the article is an ******* and stalked the poor guy. He told numerous times that he didn't have any supernatural powers, but this guy keep stalking him over and over again. Some people are just *******.
Jon_Thompson
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From the article: "Many people would of course say, ‘of course he’s a magician.’ Magic shows are controlled illusions, intended to entertain people. It should be obvious, but the problem is that a newspaper printed that he did indeed predict the Super Bowl, which seems to me to be false. Additionally, he claimed in print that he did in fact predict the Super Bowl, again repeating the falsehood. Finally, he put a $1,000 bet on the successful completion of a magic trick, which was dishonest (besides being illegal) and violated one of the codes of ethics that most magicians adhere to. Finally, he very stupidly put an empty $25,000 reward for anyone who could prove that he set anything up in his shows."

Whoops, Mr Saint! If true, the above was a disaster waiting to happen. I'll never understand why people make claims that rely on the audience's lack of knowledge. They just make people think "what am I missing here?" and look "behind the curtain"
vai
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There will always be people that will seek to ruin the illusion.

Short of cutting ourselves off from the rest of humanity and never revealing anything which can even remotely suggest a possibility that we have ever used a particular device or method, there is nothing we can do to stop these people.

They will be happy to purchase items from magic shops (probably online) for the sole purpose of ruining the fun for all of us, including our spectators.


Some people just don't want to be entertained :-(
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Todd Robbins
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I read that too. It seems that Adrian Saint is a student that has a lot to learn. This stunt was not well conceived. Some pitfalls can not be forseen, but to put offer $1,000 if you 'prediction' is incorrect and then offer $25,000 to anyone that can prove you didn't do what you claim is a set up for a big fall.

Headline predictions are a great way to get publicity, but as with all performance, you have to know what you are doing. There have been several incidents where headline predictions have gone wrong. One includes predicting a headline about a murder and then having the police take the mentalist in for questioning! Another concerned a guy who was to do a headline prediction, but the headline was that Elvis Presley had died. You have to know what you are doing, or something like this can backfire.

Putting money up is a great idea, but only if you are bullet proof. I have offered $10,000 to anyone that can prove the nails or light bulbs I use are gimmicked in anyway. This challenge has gotten the desired attention, but I have nothing to lose on this.


Quote:
On 2008-03-04 07:11, Jon_Thompson wrote:
From the article: "Many people would of course say, ‘of course he’s a magician.’ Magic shows are controlled illusions, intended to entertain people. It should be obvious, but the problem is that a newspaper printed that he did indeed predict the Super Bowl, which seems to me to be false. Additionally, he claimed in print that he did in fact predict the Super Bowl, again repeating the falsehood. Finally, he put a $1,000 bet on the successful completion of a magic trick, which was dishonest (besides being illegal) and violated one of the codes of ethics that most magicians adhere to. Finally, he very stupidly put an empty $25,000 reward for anyone who could prove that he set anything up in his shows."

Whoops, Mr Saint! If true, the above was a disaster waiting to happen. I'll never understand why people make claims that rely on the audience's lack of knowledge. They just make people think "what am I missing here?" and look "behind the curtain"
magicusb
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We in our current show "Haunted!" Mind Mysteries & THE Beyond. we have two money "guarantees".
One is that we do not set anyone up before the show or ask for information that is used during the show. We do no p*****w of any kind. and the second is that there is no one else in the building behind the scenes that is helping with the show or any occurances that might happen during the evening, it is just the two of us.

No way to win those.

Houdini had one where he said he would give up the money if anyone could prove he could get air while suspended upside down underwater in the water torture cell. No way to collect on that. Of course he was not upside down for long.
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http://Houdini.org
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"The truth shall make you free, but first it will make you angry." -Robert Ingersoll-Atheist (on the mind of Houdini when he died.)

We are thrilled we were able to bring The Grim Game to the world! Thanks TCM.
Mr. Mindbender
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I think if we want to discuss effects or techniques on this forum, we must p****, or at least f******, and if that is going to cause a problem, then think about r*****, ***u****, ******************s, or a***h***l***'s, ***************************d.

Just my *****d*** opinion.

:)
Chris K
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Hmmm, a gamut of emotions went through me as I read the article. I also did my undergraduate work at Davis, so I feel even a bit more vested. However, I'll try to keep my commentary to a minimum and merely share my thoughts:

1.) I think this is much ado about nothing. Posting the article here probably lead to more hits than the author imagined, including one for me. Exposure, especially exposure like this which really isn't exposure but guesses, hurts nobody. Sdoing this type of effect thinking that electronic chicanery isn't the most expressed explanation is deluded.

2.) I think that the article is completely appropriate given that a $25,000 challenge was issued. I mean, jeez, what the heck would one think in this situation? The performer brought this one himself and should have expected it.

3.) The logic behind the article is weak at best. The simple retort, which he still hasn't satisfactorily addressed is what if the tape was recorded digitally to begin with? So it is all a moot point anyway. Ignoring the subject, it is just a poor attempt at writing.

4.) I am still evaluating the effect of online forums in this situation. Information, whether from a forum, or other sources is hard to destroy. Even if it wasn't the performer posting, one would still only have to google certain key words anyway.

5.) I feel everybody involved with this should be embarassed. The performer for bringing this on, the author for a logically inconsistent and uneven analysis (which still can't "prove" a darn thing), and, not least of all, all of us for giving the article hits and discussing it. I am, of course, just as guilty but felt the need to point out that all we are doing is promoting "exposure" (if you think that is what it is) or just pointless drivel (which is what I think it is). Both of which do nothing to progress the art.

Just my opinions with a dash of commentary (less sodium than salt).

L
RickDangerous
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Quote:
On 2008-03-04 12:44, Mr. Mindbender wrote:
I think if we want to discuss effects or techniques on this forum, we must p****, or at least f******, and if that is going to cause a problem, then think about r*****, ***u****, ******************s, or a***h***l***'s, ***************************d.

Just my *****d*** opinion.

:)

clear, precise and to the point. Topic closed Smile
"Reality is what you can get away with."
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"Think for yourself and question authority."
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Virungan
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********* ***
Smile When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth...Smile
magicman02
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What Mr. Saint did was no different then what other performers do when they do a "stunt" for a event. Many performers say they will pay the client a fee if their "stunt/prediction" isn't right. He is a very good friend of mine and you never hear about him because he is out performing full time. The stunt went well for him. For about a month all everyone would talk about was how he did it and if he had "any powers" which he clearly denied.

He offered the $25,000 reward (which he could pay) because people kept coming to his show and saying his entire show was stooged and set up. Which it wasn't, it was just that people had never seen a mentalism show and what he did people assume was set up because it was so amazing. He has learned from this lesson and has moved on, but the guy who stalked him and wrote this stupid article hasn't.
magicman02
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Just to clear it up, the $25,000 was not for the super bowl prediction, it was to prove that he used stooges or secret assistants in his show, which he never has or does. He put that up, because people kept coming to his show and accusing him of have the entire show set up, like some performers we know in our industry.
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