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mrunge
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It's not wrong at all. I can appreciate your concern, but it is not necessary here since you'll be the one using it. Ethics come into play when you take someone else's creation and start making them for resale, to make money, without the consent of the creator.

People take things and make them at home all the time. Ever seen a kit car or airplane? How about a clock, rug, chair or table, etc... There are even plans available, for purchase, to create a TON of magic effects on your own. Paul Osborne sells most of them and Tony Hassini and Mark Wilson, among others, have videos on how to build your own effects, including tips to avoid spending money to buy snowstorms. Heck...I even make my own mouth coils!

Have a good time and put your mental energy on things that you'll enjoy...such as a blower for the effect you're thinking about.

Good luck.

Mark.
RVH Magic
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Mrunge,

you say: "It's not wrong at all. I can appreciate your concern, but it is not necessary here since you'll be the one using it. Ethics come into play when you take someone else's creation and start making them for resale, to make money, without the consent of the creator. "

So everybody is allowed to make one for himself without paying Kevin for all the hard work he has done? Doesn't make any sense !
Kevin created the idea of using a (electric) fan for the snowstorm, so even if you change the routine it's still his invention.
So taking this trick and/or routine from Kevin is considered stealing if you didn't buy a authorised version - even if you're not reselling it!
We should be very happy that Kevin took the time & effort to make this great routine available to us -especially since he's making a living performing this in his own shows!

Tony,
I really hope you do the right thing and contact Kevin James to talk about this before making the assumption that it's ok to make this for yourself (even if it is more fun to make thing for yourself)

Kind regards,
Rafael

Ps:
you can also contact Kevin James thru his myspace page...
Michael Berends
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I agree with Rafael,

Do the right thing and contact Kevin, It truly is his creation.
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"IMPOSSIBLE HAS JUST BECOME AN OPINION"
ERIC
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"Do the right thing and contact Kevin, It truly is his creation."

Magician's were using the blowers from vaccuume cleaners to float balloons and tissue LONG before Kevin. It was he that first put it into a stool for Snowstorm. So as long as it is not in a stool, done with his patter, music and timing, it is not his exclusively.

Next thing you will be saying is if I set up a house fan on the stage and stand by it so it blows my hair, I will have to get permission from Hans Klock. Magic has grown and developed when someone takes what has been done before, changes it to fit their personality and personna and comes up with maybe a new way, an easier way maybe even a more beautiful way of doing something. "We build upon the shoulders of those who went before."

If you really study magic history, you might be surprised as to where certian effects actually started from, how they evolved and became what we know now and who really "Created" them.
mrunge
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Yep. Smile

Mark.
RVH Magic
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Maybe you should know that no one use an electric blower to animate the snow material before Kevin James so that is his creation. If you want to use an oriental folding fan that is public domain but the other is not.

The inventor is still alive and is making his living selling that intellectual property. Sooooo, read your bible. Thou shalt not steal.

Unfortunately it is a pretty easy thing to steal. but I hope this clarifies what is right and wrong morally.

Sincerely,
Rafael

Ps : not only a stool is Kevin's idea, he also builds them in gift boxes, tables, stages, chairs, suitcases and lot's of other objects. (he can custom design one for you or only sell you the (right) fan so you can put it in whatever object you want.
ERIC
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Rafael,

We can agree to disagree.

Although Keven has some wonderful ideas and routines,(I love the way his mind works) YOU ARE WRONG on this one.

Going back to 1971, there was a young magician at IBM Ring 200 by the name on Don Hanko. He used an old vaccume to animate a balloon to move back and forth while floating above his table as he was off about five feet making the magical gestures. Also during this, confette was made to fly up (although not from his hands) ala snowstorm.

Afterward, he showed me his set up which was built into his table, and he told me that it was an old concept (even back then) that he reworked for his needs, and to fit his dove routine.

I am sure there are some still on this board who remember Donny. Unfortunitely for us all, he fell away from magic. A great loss as he was very talented.

So you see, as I said before, Keven built the fisrt stool, and he has since made other types of animators, his was not the first.
mrunge
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Yep. Smile

Mark.
Tony Thomas
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You guys are a crack up. Let's get back to ideas about building things. Okay, before I go experimenting with insulation and ventilation, I have decided to experiment with 110volt fans (small, quiet, house fans). I'm going to buy a few and experiemnt. I will have to buy a radio shack converter to allow a 110 plug to convert to a 12 volt. I'm hoping this will provide good air flow in a quiet way. I don't think I will be able to experiment with this until the weekend. Do y'all think it will work?
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RVH Magic
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Hi Eric,

You're missing the point here!
We're not talking about hiding a fan to operate a balloon!
Tony wants to do a snowstorm using a hidden fan in a box (present) please read his first post again.
If you want to do this you need to contact Kevin or buy it from him because it's his creation! (nobody did this before him, check your magic history)
If you want to levitate a balloon go ahead,Like you say it's been done before (a old trick that Abbotts still sells) but no confetti/ snowstorm from the hands because that's Kevin's idea !
End of story ....
Tony Thomas
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So Rafael,

If I put my fan in a milk churn, then everything is good? Seriously, if the issue is that the end result can't look like something that he sells, then no problem. I really don't want to copy a routine that I have seen, and I think think there are a lot of packages and shapes that this thing can take. Does this make everything cool in your opinion?
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Michael Berends
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Rafael is right...

No other magician used this method for a snowstorm before Kevin...It is his brainchild. Your final effect is the same no matter what you put it in. It's a snowstorm motivated by the same means. If you have a red stick and a black stick, they may look different, but they're still both a stick.

There is also a lot of work that goes into these ideas well before it's a finished product and used onstage... I should know, I was a part of the development of the latest in the Snow Animator series, and am still part of the creation team.

It took Kevin's mind, and a number of others, a lot of experimenting, time, patience, and energy to create this amazing piece of magic.

So if it isn't a really big deal (like you say) then why didn't you think of it? Or why didn't magicians use this decades ago (with a vacuum cleaner)? If it weren't for Kevin, this piece of magic wouldn't even exist and we wouldn't be having this debate.
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"IMPOSSIBLE HAS JUST BECOME AN OPINION"
RVH Magic
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Tony,

Please read my posts again, it is not about where you put(hide) your fan.
It's about using a (hidden) fan to do a snowstorm effect - if you want to use/make this you need to get a "go" from Kevin.
Please respect his creation !
A little bit more respect towards the (copy)rights in magic will go a long way in our art....

Sincerely,
Rafael
Tony Thomas
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My Thoughts -

I see no problem with contacting Kevin, letting him know what I am trying to do, and see if he will give me his blessing. Maybe considering considering magic is not my profession, and all my work in the area of magic is non-profit, he will be happy to bless my endeavors.

Seriously though, as to the ethics issues. I see real problems in what guidelines magicians are dealing with. Organizations like IBM and SAM need to provide more clarity, espicially since the creation of the internet. I only see one sentence that guides ethics related to this issue:

"Recognize and respect for rights of the creators, inventors, authors, and owners of magic concepts, presentations, effects and literature, and their rights to have exclusive use of, or to grant permission for the use by others of such creations."

And this one sentence leaves too much open for interpretation. When someone uses a fan with a magic trick and then decides to start selling the fans, what exactly is protected? Is it the fan used with that trick (they suddenly own the idea of combining those two things), is it the routine and the look of what they did (therefore someone could change the routine and look and be fine). When an inventor didn't invent the fan and didn't invent the trick, it seems a strech that they own so much. The most conservative reading is too all encompasing for the art of magic to progress "on the shoulders of what has gone before" in my opinion. Another question - How does competition enter the market? I beleive looking at other markets that competition is good. I thik we need more than one sentence to guide ethics in a situation like this.

I will contact Kevin, & see what comes of that, but I don't agree that the most conservative application of this ethical guideline is good for the art of magic.
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Tony Thomas

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thurstonlives
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Well, I was owner of the fist version of the snow animator and it didn't look like a stool, almost not a conventional one, did a lot of noise and was really expensive for what it was. Later I did it better by my own.

Putting a fan inside a box can not be registered, patented or copyrighted in any known form so let him put the fan were he wants.

All of you that have no readen the forum this is an area for those who wants to construct their apparatus not to buy them.

Tomorrow Im going to invent the 360º.000000000000001 wheel.
In two days millionare!!
Dan Paulus
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Quote:
On 2008-03-08 22:06, Tony Thomas wrote: Plan C will be to just use a fan - altough I will have to find a fan that will somehow fit a fishing persona. Maybe I can make it look like a fishing net.

If y'all have any thoughts that could help, let me know...


How about using one of those stuffed fish with the huge fan on it's back. (Sorry, I don't fish and don't know what they're called, but I've seen them on the walls of outdoor sports shops often) It would be plastic of course and small enough to fit in your hand.
Otherwise, how about making a make shift fan out of some brochures for fishing vacations?

just some thoughts.
There is no great genius without a mixture of madness. - Aristotle
Aristotle

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Tony Thomas
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Thanks Thurstonlives - good luck with that wheel!

Dan - You are thinking of a sailfish. That would be bazarre - Ha! Now seriously, the brochure idea is one that I could see working for me. Thanks.
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g0thike
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Peeps,

So did Kevin James get permission for the snowstorm effect via a blower from Don Hanko. That young magician at the IBM Ring 200 in 1971?

I really think Kevin James is RIPPING OFF Don Hanko.

Seriously the fan was not invented by a magician. Just don't put it in a box that resembles a present or a barstool.

G0THIKE
mrunge
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Yep! Smile

Mark.
Fredrick
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Quote:
On 2008-03-11 18:43, ERIC wrote:
Going back to 1971, there was a young magician at IBM Ring 200 by the name on Don Hanko. He used an old vaccume to animate a balloon to move back and forth while floating above his table as he was off about five feet making the magical gestures. Also during this, confette was made to fly up (although not from his hands) ala snowstorm.

Afterward, he showed me his set up which was built into his table, and he told me that it was an old concept (even back then) that he reworked for his needs, and to fit his dove routine.


Eric,

The effect of floating a balloon with an air source was an Abbott's product. Of course, many of the effects that they have sold over the years were purchased from the magician/inventor. Bryce's Screen is a good example.

All the best,

~ Fredrick
"Try to find the humanity in the magic and maybe you'll come up with something of your own. It's the humanity that gets you there, not techniques." Michael Moschen on Creativity
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