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IAIN
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I just meant, I see "theme" being different to explanation...probably just down to semantics that one...

I mean a demonstration of muscle reading would be a true thing to show, if you didn't dress it with a different/fake explanation...
I've asked to be banned
Esjay Dee
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Entity, Yes, you're quite right, there is no agreement on the existence of psi.

However a psychic will know they are genuine and present themself as such.

I do follow your arguement though and can see that it would be very difficult to demonstrate its existance.

On the other hand I don't think 'proving it' is that important to everyone who has psychic traits as only a few will have any interest in public perfomances.

As to psychological themes, when executed well (as I'm sure yours are), these will not be seen as bogus at all. My comment wasn't meant as a sleight, sorry if it came over that way.

steve.
Tom Cutts
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Mentalists apologize for their actions to cover their own guilt. Psychics do it for legal purposes. Smile
entity
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Mentalists sometimes use disclaimers out of respect for their audiences.

- entity
Tom Cutts
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Possibly, but more often it appears they use them for the reason I have stated above; and for the reason you have stated elsewhere, a theatrical purpose, not a disclaiming one.
entity
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Appears to you, maybe.

Your comment about my statement re: disclaimers is a distortion, and is untrue.

- entity
Tom Cutts
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You may believe it is a distortion and untrue, but I believe it is what you wrote.
yachanin
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Hi Tom,

I didn't realize Mentalists felt guilty. About what?

Regards, Steve
Tom Cutts
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Hi Steve,

About their actions contributing to a belief they do not hold.

Tom
yachanin
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Hi Tom,

With a disclaimer, there is a recognition on the part of the performer and audience that what occurs is a theatrical presentation and cannot reasonably be taken as supporting a particular belief system or as a contribution to any belief system. There will be some, of course, who will ignore the disclaimer, but there is nothing to do about that.

I don't see where there is any source for guilt in that.

Regards, Steve
entity
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Are you a psychic, Tom, or a mentalist?

- entity
Tom Cutts
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Quote:
There will be some, of course, who will ignore the disclaimer, but there is nothing to do about that.
Why is there nothing to do about that? I see it as a simple question of where you draw the line. If people ignore a disclaimer I would say it is ineffective. If some people ignore a stop sign, what is the consequence?
A. people are stopped and advised as to their possible ignorance
B. the situation is analized to see if the sign visibility is at stake
c. someone suggest "stop" is politically incorrect

I have agreed with Entity that our interpretations of a disclaimer are different. So many mentalists call their theatrical introduction a disclaimer, when in fact it disclaims very little, leaves much open to interpretation, and often tells outright lies. I have no problem with entertainers doing any of this. I do have an issue with calling such a theatrical ploy "a disclaimer".

Personally, if I felt the need to make a disclaimer, I would want it to be clear, concise, and effective for everyone at my performance. While people go home with their convictions they came with, a truly disclaimed performance of trickery and illusion should leave no doubt for anyone that what took place was trickery and illusion. See Penn and Teller. I don't care how he does it, that Miser's Dream is brilliant.

I'd also do analysis to make sure the disclaimer was effective.

Entity,

Why is always gender? psyCHIC this and MENtalist that... Smile

OK, on a more serious side, my finding above about your posts is my understanding of them. Since no exacting data is provided, no exacting outcome can be made from your words. You do admit, I believe, that there is failure of it and you are OK with that.

Disclaimer: My above post is my interpretation of Entity's postings. (I bet that is as effective as a theatrical disclaimer.)

I am not a mentalist. I once was but now I'm cured.
Sealegs
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In my offering in my earlier post in this thread I made a definitive distinction between a psychic and a mentalist without, as far as I can see, claiming anything apparently unacceptable to anyone lying along the psychic-mentalist spectrum?

I noticed it passed by without comment. That might be because it doesn't simply merit comment. Then again it might also be because it's an equitable 'solution' for all parties and so doesn't help promote a head of steam by giving fuel to anyone's point, position or stance.

I actually find that aspect of this thread more interesting and informative than the individual posts contained within it.

Neal.
Neal Austin

"The golden rule is that there are no golden rules." G.B. Shaw
Tom Cutts
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You said yourself you don't see the point in making your distinctions. Lots of mentalists claim to have powers inborn. Some psychics claim to tap into something outside them.
entity
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So Cutts, you are a psychic. Or, to be more precise, a fake psychic.

Some fake psychics seem to resent disclaimers because of their own guilt about tap-dancing around the ethical line. They see people with integrity as a threatening reminder of their own dishonesty.

This thread is about the difference between psychics and mentalists. I guess that's one difference.



- entity
Tom Cutts
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Quote:
I guess that's one difference.

Hey Baxter, do you mean one difference between a psychic and a mentalist is that one is ethical and one is not?

I do agree on your view of fake psychics and the toll of keeping up the lie. The same holds true for many who call themselves mentalists, hate psychics, and still tell lies about claimed abilities and/or techniques.

Everyone on The Café is entitled to state their view, if they can do so with civility.

Tom
entity
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Neal: I didn't respond to your earlier post because I didn't find it specific enough to warrant a response. Where does the "special something" that mentalists tap into reside? If it's internal as opposed to external, isn't it exactly what you say a psychic does? At the end of your post, you suggest it doesn't really matter, and that distinctions aren't useful.

I didn't see a reason to respond to that. It's your opinion, and you're entitled to it.

- entity
yachanin
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Hi Tom,

Quote:
On 2008-03-09 21:04, Tom Cutts wrote:
Quote:
There will be some, of course, who will ignore the disclaimer, but there is nothing to do about that.
Why is there nothing to do about that? I see it as a simple question of where you draw the line. If people ignore a disclaimer I would say it is ineffective. If some people ignore a stop sign, what is the consequence?
A. people are stopped and advised as to their possible ignorance
B. the situation is analized to see if the sign visibility is at stake
c. someone suggest "stop" is politically incorrect


There is nothing to do about a spectator ignoring a disclaimer because the performer is not the audience's keeper. To assume a disclaimer is "ineffective" because it is ignored by a spectator is only one possibility. There are, of course, many other reasons spectators may ignore a disclaimer.

The point I made, which you did not address, is that a disclaimer is a recognition on the part of the performer and audience that what occurs is a theatrical presentation and cannot reasonably be taken as supporting a particular belief system or as a contribution to any belief system.

Your thoughts?

Regards, Steve
Tom Cutts
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Hi Steve,

My thoughts are: "If it fails to impress on even one audience member that what they saw was only trickery and illusion, then it fails as that which disclaims."

I thought I made that clear... but I guess I failed. Smile I'm guilty. Must... follow... rule... of... threes... "Tell them what you are going to do, do it, then tell them that you did it."

In a world where people win lawsuits because "the coffee is too hot", would your disclaimer cover you in a court of law? I bet most mentalists, no; but most public psychics, yes. Fine print saying this is all just entertainment and meant only for your amusement.

That would be one of "the distinctions between a psychic and a mentalist".

Sadly even if you won, defending yourself could bankrupt you.

Tom
Dr Spektor
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To me, it really still comes down to what the performer (I hope that is the right word for this topic) reason for his or her approach to the audience - which should be about mutual wonder without exploitation. Some will use disclaimers -verbal...some nonverbal... some none... and that is OK.

However, as posted elsewhere, this gets back to each individual's concepts and ethical mindset on their responsibilty to others and the impact such powerful art can have on people.

Although a disclaimer may not always help in a court of law - having none might not be helpful there either!

Oh, my thoughts on a psychic versus a mentalist...

A psychic has "real" powers.

A mentalist is an entertainer that creates mental illusions for the entertainment of the crowd.

A Paranormalist is an entertainer that creates supernatural illusions for the entertainment of the crowd.

A psychic entertainer is someone who entertains using psychic motifs - and if they use something like an oracular system - follow the system in a way that is consistent with the system and not to exploit people but help them and get paid at the same time

A Mystery Entertainer is similar but with extra mystery Smile

Of course, this is only my thoughts...

I call myself a Mizarrist as I combine bizarre magic and mentalism all the time as an educator/performer.

Complex lines and shades o' grey around here.
"They are lean and athirst!!!!"
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