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Steven True Special user Bonney Lake,WA 765 Posts |
I came to the Café' a few years ago. I have learned a lot from the "pro" as well as the one just performing for freinds and family just for the fun of it. Am I a pro? I have to say no. Do I want to be a pro? Yes!! If I am a pro will my ideas and feedback be of any help or will it just turn out to be a self gratifying moment. I learn from the performers here even if they are not the ones that do 500, 1,000 ,5,000 shows a year. I read a lot more than I post sometimes because of the way I see some offer their "so called help". I think the Café' is going through a very scary, at the same time, very uplifting self revelation. We are getting back to some of those, for lack of a better term, good old days. Well at least the days that I was wondering around here after getting back into magic after a very long, and unhappy, time away from this great art. I started looking at the posts and saw that there were a lot of people trying to help others. Not like recently where people would come on here just to argue with other posters.
There have been so many times I have wanted to ask questions about things I need advice for with my act, but decided against it because of seeing the way some were being treated. I am now seeing a shift from that to what we have going on right now. That is a discusion about what and who we can help with our knowledge, or maybe in my case lack of knowledge. I know that I see a new and hopefully wonderful turn here. We are setting ourselves up for a whole new rebirth of the Café'. Just from reading here and other forums it is going to be a great ride. Ok I ahve babbled on way to much. I am writting this at 4:23 am so I hope this makes sense when I look at it later on today. I am happy to have a place to come to where there is this gigantic reserve of knowledge. Maybe I will start posting more and ask for help. And if you don't want to help, I will understand too. Opps sorry babbling again. Thank you Steven |
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JohntheMagician Regular user Mechanicsburg, PA 157 Posts |
Ok now to further fan the fire. So who is to blame? The shops; both the online trick of the month "you to can learn street magic" type, or the brick & mortar stores that sell any effect to anyone who has the cash?
I was at Denny’s Magic Shop when a young boy walked in with his dad. The boy said to Denny I want to learn Magic. Denny asked what type, the boy said cards. Denny handed him a deck of cards and a copy of the Royal Road to Card Magic. The dad asked if he had any simple effects his son could learn, Denny replied that if the boy was serious about card magic that book would teach him everything he needed to know. After they left Denny said I could have sold him all the packet tricks I had in the shop, but that’s not what Magic’s about. Go a few months later to a different shop, the owner & I are chatting. In walks a son & his mom. I want to learn magic tricks says the kid, a gleam gets into the owners eyes as he hops off his stool. After 40 minutes, the kid walks out of the store with a Johnson Hopping Half, Needle Thru Balloon, and another $220 worth of magic. I asked the owner why he sold him all the expensive & some professional effects. He said the kid would do a few of the tricks, get tired of it and move on. I was like why sell him stuff that he’ll need a lot of practice to do right, he going to try and show his friends later and expose the whole method. To which the owner replied it’s not my fault he won’t practice, I have rent to pay. Thus I ask who’s to blame? The kids for not taking the time to practice or the places where they purchase the magic, who just sell the effects to make money, and don’t really make sure that the people are into Magic enough to risk exposing some really great effects. I believe a little of both, but we can’t control how much a person will practice or dedicate to learning the art. We can however make a push for dealers to be more thoughtful in what they sell to laymen off the street just to pay the rent. That’s just my $.02
“The hard must become habit. The habit must become easy. The easy must become beautiful.” ~ Doug Henning
<BR>____________________________________________ <BR>WWW.ILLUSIONDELUSION.COM |
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Skip Way Inner circle 3771 Posts |
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We can however make a push for dealers to be more thoughtful in what they sell to laymen off the street just to pay the rent. I remember walking into my first magic shop as a young teen in Columbus, OH. Up until this time, all of my purchases had been through the Abbott or Tannen catalogs. All I saw on display was basic novelty and "No Skill" stuff. I asked the counterman if he had a certain effect I was looking for. He indicated that he had that very item and more "behind the veil." He pointed to a cloth curtain hanging over a doorway at the back of the shop. But, to pass beyond "the veil" I had to prove that my interest in magic was genuine. I had to perform an effect. I did...nervously, but adequately...and I was allowed to pass through. On the other side of "The Veil" was a room filled with all the books and paraphernalia that I had imagined. There was also a round table with three older seated gentlemen with cards and coins scattered about. They looked at me suspiciously until the proprietor gave them a nod. From that day on I was a welcome guest and I learned volumes just sitting, listening and watching the men and women who would come and go from that room. The same thing happened when I visited Earl Edward's Norfolk, VA Magic Shoppe And Hughie Olmsted's Raleigh, NC Magic Corner for the first time. I thought that this was what a magic shop was. I was actually stunned when I entered my first "modern" magic shop in a New York mall and saw everything on display in the open and available to anyone with a checkbook or a hand full of cash. Now, these shops are the norm and the old "Inner Sanctums" are history. I hope to one day retire behind the counter of a magic shop of my own and I envision restoring the "mystery" of the shop...but, basic economics may have a say in the matter. It seems to me that requiring a certain level of skill, even a very moderate level, to gain access to the inner sanctum of 'real' magic would encourage more youngsters to actually practice their beginner effects, respect the secrets and retain a level of interest. At the very least, it would give these youngsters a place to rub shoulders with, hear the stories of and receive impromptu mentoring from the "old timers" and pro's who hang out there. Alas, with the advent of online "anything for a buck" magic sites, Dial-a-Trick YouTube exposure and the Brick & Mortars struggling to keep their doors open, I suspect that this aspect of our magic community is facing total extinction. The answer, John, seems to lie in our ability as performers to live the example, help our newbies understand the significance of magic as an art and reinforce the distinguished honor of being a nurturing part of this unique fraternity. This is why I so strongly support Magic Youth International and the Society of Young Magicians. The mantel needs to be passed, hand to hand - not just put up for grabs. Bottom line: We can't require the magic shops and dealers to do what we, ourselves, are so apathetic about preserving.
How you leave others feeling after an Experience with you becomes your Trademark.
Magic Youth Raleigh - RaleighMagicClub.org |
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Dennis Michael Inner circle Southern, NJ 5821 Posts |
Do we need to buy the newest and greatest, routine enhancers (props) absouletly not.
Why do I have the newest and greatest? Simply because I can! There is no way I could perform the thousands of magic tricks, and props I own, however, everyone in our local KIDabra group can touch, borrow and feel it; If a trick is right for themthen they can buy it. It saves money for others. It's also fun walking into a candy store and tasting all the treats. I've worked in a magic and novelty store it was fun and one learns quickly!
Dennis Michael
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TomBoleware Inner circle Hattiesburg, Ms 3163 Posts |
In most cites, the magic shops wouldn’t have a chance of surviving without the beginners, and even then they must still have all the other novelty items, jokes, costumes, etc. Just not enough interest in magic. Very few care about magic except us, and there ain’t enough of us to go around. Magic is a very small market.
I owned a novelty shop with magic for 8-9 years and without the whoopee cushions, the ball and vase,nickles to dimes,and all the stuff we see as junk I wouldn’t have lasted six months. Magic is not a repeat business, one is all you need and most beginners don’t stay with the hobby for six months, and then they’re off to something else. It's a constant making of the new hobbyist that keeps the business going. Professional magicians don’t buy magic that often, they certainly couldn’t keep a hometown shop in business. But like anything else, magic needs the hobby people to keep the interest alive. What if professional baseball players told the kids they shouldn’t play little league? What if the golfers told everyone they shouldn’t play golf? Any type professional for that matter? They wouldn’t, would never think about it, they don’t worry about the beginners. They’re professionals,they out perform the others and they need all the fans they can get. Magic is no different, some think it is because of the secrets, but it's not. The best magic fans are the ones that already know a little about magic. Going back to the respect thing on the forum, and I think Skip, and Dennis really said it well. We can’t demand respect, we have to earn it. Every time we make a post, we’re setting an example for the newbie. How can we expect them to be polite, friendly, and thankful unless we are. People will forget what you say or what you do, but it‘s not easy to forget a feeling. It’s that feeling that we give people that upsets them and they remember the most. Very hard to do with the written word on the net, and I'm sure with most, everything would be different in person, we could see that feeling and would certainly think twice about how we say things. Tom
The Daycare Magician Book
https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/amazekids/the-daycare-magician/ My Blog - https://boleware.blogspot.com/ |
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Vegasvent Loyal user Phoenix 288 Posts |
There are so many sellers of Magic with Internet stores. I am a bit old-school and often as I shop online, you have to admit that there is something magical about a true Magic Shop. So many neat things!
Magical Phil-Kidzshow, LLC
"My Wife says that either all of my Stuff goes, or she does......" "Boy, I'm sure gonna miss her cookin'." |
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TomBoleware Inner circle Hattiesburg, Ms 3163 Posts |
Problem with the internet buying, most are here today, gone tomorrow, and very few know anything about customer service.
There are a few “real stores” online that’s making things better for the places that don’t have a shop. But I agree, it’s not the same for us older people. Kind of sad that many will never know that feeling. Now with the internet it does look like most are history. Tom
The Daycare Magician Book
https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/amazekids/the-daycare-magician/ My Blog - https://boleware.blogspot.com/ |
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Steven True Special user Bonney Lake,WA 765 Posts |
I am moving to NJ where Dennis lives. I want to touch and borrow. Wow that did not sound right sorry. It is sad that so many brick and mortar stores are slowly going away. I remember growing up in So Calif. and I would go to Hollywood magic or even try and catch Joe Berg in his store. The closest store to me now is Seattle which is not really that far but they have more novelty than magic it seems. I do purchase a lot online but I also go and spend at least $100 every couple of months at the Seattle shop. My thoughts are if I can do that at least I am trying to help keep them open. I know that $100 every couple of months is not much but I at least do that.
Do we need the latest and greatest? NO!!! Do we want it, oh heck yes. I would love to have the money to go and see Chance Wolf and buy one of each of his in stock items. But with money tight right now I just can't. I am going back to some of the golden oldies with my new show. Run Dragon Run, Spot Can, What's Next. It takes me back to earlier days. I hope that the kids will enjoy them. Heck I just moved into the 21st century and bought a Joe Lefler table. I wish there wa a "magic" answer to this thread, but sadly there is not. Hope this made more sense than my previous post. It is still early. Happy Magic Steven Posted: Mar 23, 2008 2:48am Man can I kill a thread or what? |
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Vegasvent Loyal user Phoenix 288 Posts |
There's a Joe Lefler table?
Magical Phil-Kidzshow, LLC
"My Wife says that either all of my Stuff goes, or she does......" "Boy, I'm sure gonna miss her cookin'." |
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Dennis Michael Inner circle Southern, NJ 5821 Posts |
Steven,
What needed to be said pretty much was said. The Metamorphosis of the Little Darlings, went down hill when those who considered themselves to be "the best" gave nothing to this section but negative and self praise ego elevating information. They ceased to help, and only hurt the profession of entertaining children. It appears they succeed in doing what they set out to do. In a previous post in this section, a challange went out for those who consider themselves to be skilled in this area to place one routine which others could build upon. Without giving back, they pretty much labled themselves, not as pros, but "wantabe pros". They have not reach that "stage of giving" and "teaching", where the true masters of the magical profession strive to be. For those who truly want to elevate their skills, learn that children entertaining is different than close-up and manipulation, then they should attend a KIDabra International Conference. (Clickable Links are in orange or yellow). Dennis
Dennis Michael
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Danny Hustle Inner circle Boston, MA USA 2393 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-03-23 07:33, Dennis Michael wrote: You are right Dennis, and I'm glad you recognized you were doing it, and stopped. Admitting there is a problem is the first step. Best, Dan- Posted: Mar 23, 2008 9:44am I admit, I was half joking with my above post. I think the big problem has more to do with the negative comments like those above. When you start pointing fingers, and calling names, somebody, somewhere, is going to take offense, or be humored enough to make a response, (which was the case with me, Dennis left himself wide open for my comment, and I went with it for the sake of comedy. No actual offense meant Dennis!). A good friend once described some of these threads as running a race in the idiot Olympics. Even if you win...you're still an idiot. We've all fallen victim to it, myself included. If you want to make the place better, stop saying things like, 'This group is a bunch of know nothing ego bangers.' Save that stuff for a well placed P.M. Saying it in the public forum just starts to make you look like an idiot, ego banger, as I said, I know because like many of you, I have also done it, been there, and have the small engraved key chain to prove it. Best, Dan- "MT is one of the reasons we started this board! I’m so sick of posts being deleted without any reason given, and by unknown people at that." - Steve Brooks Sep 7, 2001 8:38pm ©1999-2014 Daniel Denney all rights reserved. |
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Michael M. New user Ex-Brit in the USA 34 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-03-23 07:33, Dennis Michael wrote: And yet in this very comment, Dennish, you yourself become just as judgemental. As a person who really tries to get something from "The Little Darlings" and is also on number of other professional forums, this forum's "Little Darlings" is one of the most brutal, judgemental forums I've ever been on...ever. Look at the thread on the "Bunny Police" and how it's turned negative (thanks, Magic Santa..or is it "Magic Satan" said the Church Lady with a twisted lip)already! I think stating that because pro's many times harbour the feelings of "if you want this, then work like I did" that they are un-professional is not only in error, it's uncalled for. A forum is supposed to be supportive, yes, but "candy coated" niceties? I think we should all be beyond that. You can be nice, but real. I think at some point that the "candy coated" extreme makes the pendulum swing to some real negativity. To watch these extremes battle it out on almost every relevant thread gets tiresome and BORING. Danny's comments to Dennis were just another fire to fight fire, and the "half kidding" comment means absolutely nothing to detract from an obvious jab if only to make an effort not to have his post deleted. Not a personal attack on Danny, but what he's done seems to happen over, and over, and over.....and is done by many. This is what I'm seeing: Good topic Niceties & Advice Negativities about too much advice being "handed out freely" Bickering over "what we should really be saying" Loss of the actual point or any help whatsoever. What I see little of is real humor in an area where you'd think you'd really want it...performing for children! Where is the joy of performance here? I don't see a lot of happiness at all! I'm wondering if kids really saw what you guys bicker about, would they still look up to you? Would their parents? After all, this is a public forum. I'm hoping my critique helped. I have also been caught in the same snares and arguments as all I've named...and at some point I realized it's just better to nip it in the bud and really try to contribute...or to simply ignore the negativity, avoid the inevitable fight (because that's all they want anyway) and either help or walk away from it. Mike |
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Dennis Michael Inner circle Southern, NJ 5821 Posts |
When I wote those comments, I must at least have blinders on because I was summerizing the comments of this section related to the question asked. "Man can I kill a thread or what????" and the direction related to the Metamorphosis of the Little Darlings from previous posts.
Life is to short, more so for me, and what time I have left should be spent helping others. The best direction for everyone concerned related to entertaining children is to give of yourself and help others. This is a more positive approach, let the reader decide if that information is useful.
Dennis Michael
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KC Cameron Inner circle Raleigh, North Carolina 1944 Posts |
Quote:
The pros are encouraging creativity, practice, discipline, and producing great entertainment with minimal or no props. I am not sure the way this thread went was as Tom wanted. I haven't seen the "non-pros" pushing props over creativity practice or discipline. I have not seen anyone who would not agree that creativity, practice, discipline are of utmost importance. Sure, everyone needs a place to start, and I think it is safe to say we have all bought a lot of @$#^% in the past. Potty, whom I don't think anyone can claim is not a pro buys a lot of expensive props, and AL works with the bare necessities. Both are pros with different styles and desires. Tom himself has written about how good some props were. Personally, I think the original post is a bit divisive pros vs. non-pros. I like props (until I have to transport them) because they keep me interested. I change my show not only for repeat business, but to keep from getting bored. This last Saturday I did a 75 minute show for 11 y/os with nothing but what they had in their house (string, straws, pencils, coins, paper bags, forks) and body magic. The show before that took 4 trips to load in. The show after it was a suitcase table and my parrot. All were good shows with happy clients. Anyone who thinks props make you a good or bad magician needs his head examined!*G* Props can help, but are secondary. Without props all you have is word games and body magic - and then your body is a prop . . . so props are important whether it is the right piece of rope or a fancy box trick. While an experienced magician can make nearly anything into a good show, we don't. We all have our favorites, and we don't get our props blindly. There IS a difference between props (even between types of rope!), and some can be used easier than others. Magic is evolving, and while there is a lot of junk out there, there are some real jewels that are new. |
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Tom Riddle Special user Chelsea, UK 507 Posts |
"I am not sure the way this thread went was as Tom wanted"
Captain.............I had no pre-concieved notion or expectation of the way this thread was going to go. I have simply watched it with, as yet, no comment. It has certainly caused much interest, and there have been a few excellent posts. In due course, I shall sumarise my thoughts on what has been said.
"Yes, Virginia, there really are people named Riddle...isn't that AMAZING! And to think of all the royalties I'm missing out on! SCANDALOUS!"
Thomas Williamson Riddle III Chelsea, UK |
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