Does anyone who does any tricks with alcohol bottles such as "Multiplying Bottles' etc, give any disclaimer before hand about obtaining the bottles? For testimony's sake it doesn't look good for a Pastor or Christian worker to have all this alcohol. We can't say before hand that "these are not real bottles" as that would ruin the magic. We can't say,"I got these from a magic shop not in a liquor store".That says," must be phoney bottles". Would it be proper to say, "I bought these empty bottles from another magician just for this trick"? Any patter suggestions would be helpful.-Rev Bill

I think it depends on the message. If the message needs the bottles to illustrate the message, no one will care. They are supposed to represent real bottles, if you point out the obvious, the magic is gone.

My multiplying bottles are Rootbeer bottles...thus no problem. I would not even consider using alcohol bottles unless I'm teaching about the danger of it or about it being wrong for young people to drink.

I guess when Jesus turned water to wine in containers that held upwards of 30 gallons each, he didn't worry about what people would think.

How about, "it took me 15 years to work on this trick. That's one bottle a year." (or however many bottles you use)

Hi Rev Bill:

One option is to change the labels. There is another thread (I believe it's in the Workshop category) about how to make your own labels for the Multiplying Martini routine. I've not tried it, buy if you have a computer with some software, you can buy adhesive paper at a office supply place like Staples and make your own labels.

Another option is buy labels on ebay. If you enter "bottle labels" into the search box, you will find all kinds of vintage labels. I found some that were from France, and were for boxes of stawberries, but they looked very nice, and fit the bottles perfectly.

Ron

Good ideas Ron...

My problem with some who claim to be Gospel magicians, would rather exercise their right to call something what they want, or do something they want over the concerns of the audience. If you are alienating your audiences, then there is no ministry. Great number of churches would be offend at using alcohol bottles in their sanctuary...I would You may not personally have any problems with it, but if it offends the people you're trying to reach what good are you doing.

When performing, whether Gospel, or secular, it's about the audience. They are there to enjoy themselves not to watch us think how good we are or for us to exercise our rights. Entertaining is about the people who are watching us, and ministry is about the people who are watching us and need to hear the gospel but if we put up walls they will never hear the message...

Amen, Terry. You are right on about the audience - it's all about sharing the Good News of Christ Jesus, and anything that gets in the way of the gospel message should be eliminated. It is true some folks could not get past the fact that you're using bottles of alcohal, and the message you're trying to communicate to them would lose some or all it's effectiveness.

Ron

Hi Rev Bill -

I imagine that you don't want to replace your bottles, however for people looking for a kid-friendly / family-friendly / church-friendly multiplying bottles set to begin with, go to http://www.hocus-pocus.com/magicshop/ and type Kandu into the search function.

Kandu makes a rootbeer bottles multiplying bottles set (maybe this is what Terry was referring to earlier).

This was shared on another thread in another area.

I think it's a great idea.

- Donald

That's the ones I have...I get a powerful reaction from the routine, family friendly and kid safe...

Hi Terry , Ron,Thank you for your suggestions.revlovejoy,(I guess when Jesus turned water to wine in containers that held upwards of 30 gallons each, he didn't worry about what people would think).If one is concerned about his reputation and testimony for Christ,you better worry what people think.
One of the Scriptural principles that we need to remember is "Abstain from all appearance of evil." Unless I am preaching about alcohol I would not use "alcohol" bottles. Even though I do not smoke I would not do cigarette manipulations. I like Duane Laflins secular anti-alcohol routine with the bottles. The trick I have is Harries Wine Bodega where you vanish 6 different bottles. I need 6 different family friendly soft drinks, juices, etc.not all the same labels. My Printmaster is on the fritz.I'll try to get help with software.

I would have to say that I agree with not using the alcohol bottles, especially when there is an alternative. Personally, I would have fun trying to create my own labels (but that's because I am a little...uh...different...lol).

As for the water to wine miracle and Jesus not caring what people thought: I think that it's important to remember the context that the miracle happened in. It wasn't a point where Jesus was trying to teach the truth of the gospel, it was a wedding...

Actually, in the Greek the word for wine could be understood as either alcoholic or not. They had a drink for special occassions of the sweet nectar from the grapes which was a little thicker and certainly fuller flavor. They even have something similar in Germany which I've had...it was zingy grape juice, but no alcohol. In my opinion, the wine served may have been the nectar instead of alcoholic wine. That is why they noticed that it tasted better. After folks had been drinking to the point they ran out, they probably would not have noticed that something better was now being served.

Ok class, that was your Greek lesson for today.

Thank you Mister Owens!

Well I knew my jab would get this forum all riled up.

The poster asked for patter suggestions. I actually did that. Granted, it may be a lame suggestion, but it is a patter suggestion nonetheless.

As to the context of Jesus' miracle, I would contend that all of his presence was GOSPEL. The Good News of God incarnate, includes his presence with people in all places, not just the designated places of worship, and that included a wedding celebration.

Terry, I know you and I come from different stripes of Christianity. I just find it really ironic that whenever folks like me try to engage the American-style fundamentalist movement or pentecostals in conversation of the faith-science relationship, the ordination of women, or the inclusion of certain folks in the church and we appeal to critical Biblical interpretation and Greek word study, we are rebuffed as un-Biblical, yet when the uncomfortable topic (for Americans mainly) of alcohol and the Bible comes up, suddenly everyone's a Greek scholar.

I'm between my afternoon and evening Good Friday services, so I'm a little cynical. This is the same forum where Catholics have been told they weren't necessarily real Christians. There is a very rightward bias here in theology.

So ultimately I guess I agree with everyone else on the original question: change the bottle labels, it's just easier and less likely to offend.

In the interest of full disclosure, so I know that I can fully undermine my credibility with 95% of the posters here: I'm an ELCA Lutheran. We baptize babies, we celebrate the sacrament of the Eucharist every week where we use real wine, and my four year old daughter is a full participant in that, as are the other children of our congregation. So, this is just the word of a not-Christian-enough student-of-liberal-theology alcohol consuming, not drunk, baptized-at-infancy pastor. Oh, and I don't think the earth is 6,000 years old. Have I outed myself sufficiently? That should be enough to make most folks' ignore list.

I saw a pro do the multiplying bottles facing backwards when they were in a church. Just didn't have the same impact looking at plain brown bottles.

This definitely speaks to the fact that we must know our audience. I try never to do a program without consulting with the people in charge of the program as far as the limits I may face in the place I will be. But I do think the alcohol bottles could be extremely effective given the right patter and situation. Know your audience and try not to offend your host.

Revlovejoy: I enjoyed reading your post very much, and found it extremely thought provoking. I was baptized and raised as a Catholic, attended Catholic schools, and was even an alter-boy for a while. I became "Born Again" while attending a concert at a Pentecostal Church. I attended several Pentecostal churches before finding myself a member of the Baptist Church. I later met my wife who attended a Lutheran Brethren Church and joined her church. I later became a Trustee and then an Elder of that church. I later became ordained. I've been to just about every denomination service there is and have seen the many and not so many differences between them all.

I have disagreements with all of them, and find that God's church has not only been divided but has been seperated partially due to theology. I'm a big fan of theology when it helps me to understand the times and customs back then in Bible history, but find theology very weak when it tries to interpretate scriptures.

I used to say to people that I hated theology. On one occassion I said it to a fellow who I didn't know at the time had an honourary degree in divinity. He challenged my bold statement and I just casually told him that theology was man's intrepretation and understanding of God and I don't agree with most of it. I won't get into the rest of the conversation after that, but I ended up doing all the listening. I don't think I learned anything from that whole conversation though. In fact, I left there shaking my head asking myself what the heck was he telling me. He lost me after his second sentence. I should of been paying more attention I said to myself, something he might of said might of been important. I thought about that for a while and then let it go after convincing myself, "If it was so important, it would of been easy enough for a babe to understand.

(Why do we take things so simple and complicate them?)

I wonder how God will deal with all of us once we're in Heaven? I bet that's when He tells us that we were all wrong and fell short of His Glory. But, because we believed in His Son who willingly sacrificed His life as a penalty for all our sins, we have communion with God for eternity.

A wise man told me once that Christians were the only creature on earth that shoot their wounded. LOL

I come from a similar background. I was raised a Southern Baptist, and served as a musician in a number of denominations for twenty years, but by the grace of God, I met Jesus in His Real Presence in the Church. The observations about the use of Greek are dead on. BTW, that's not a commonly held view among actual Greek scholars (the non-alcaholic wine). Mr. Owens is, unintentionally I suspect, quoting a Seventh Day Adventist who invented that tidbit of philology towards the end of the 19th century.

Dear Mr. Wells, I disagree with your assumption of Bro. Owens view being SDA. I was taught the same view in my Greek classes in Bible college as well.