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VIEW
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http://www.blifaloo.com/info/lies_eyes.php

I've seen this sort of material in a lot of places. Salem & Derren might have this in their books, their lay person books, can't remember. But those aside, it's often cited in pop-psychology books.

Just wanted to ask - what do you think - fact or fiction? Real or rubbish? some truth?
Jay Are
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It has less to do with that and more to do with choice of words used when fabricating the lie...
xxx
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That's very interesting! Could you elaborate, I'm keen to learn.
xersekis
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Well,

it can be very reliable if you know how to use it and what it is for. as it is mostly understood here - in these forums - it is wrongly approached.

you look for a baseline - a pattern to calibrate to - the chart is a template not meant to be "truth" but to give you an indication of what to look for and notice - the individual peculiar patterns all of us display when processing internal thoughts and how we exhibit that processing on the outside external indicators of internal processing.

if you can learn to recognize the patterns and predicate how the person responds and then learn how to interact what you learn is you do have a reliable system

but not as the chart is typically understood or originally presented. It is truly about calibration and noticing many different things the eyes and their movements being a part of the whole pie.

one one looks at many different indicators, breathing, eye movements, skin color, posture shifts etc etc etc a far more reliable outcome results.

Plus one needs to calibrate - tat means lay down a baseline so you can compare and contrast your observations - that is what the template can help you do - but there are many more things and ways to calibrate.

learning this and much more will definitely increase your batting average.

an operator first calibrates the person during a polygraph session - creating a base line of truthfulness and deceit - then interacts with the participant in running the test and interprets the results - the better -the more skilled the operator the more assured the outcome. But because operator sill can vary among some other issues polygraph is not admissible in a court of law - that isn't to say it isn't useful or reliable but that there are reasonable issues to preclude using it.

In the same way you can become a very good lie detector when you spend the time learning how.

A good area to being is NLP - where this chart has been popularized.

dave
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Yes it's a technique used in NLP,

You can know what is someone system using this technique ( If someone is visual, auditory, interior etc.)

The Book Sleight of Mind by Ian Harling and Martin Nyrup cover this quite well.
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I have found eye and facial movements as well as hand gestures to be an essential element in the presentation of mental illusions. It is quite effective when you have no deck of cards on ya' Just like Ian & Martin said it's "slight of mind"
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Quote:
On 2008-03-20 20:32, xersekis wrote:
Well,

it can be very reliable if you know how to use it and what it is for. as it is mostly understood here - in these forums - it is wrongly approached.

you look for a baseline - a pattern to calibrate to - the chart is a template not meant to be "truth" but to give you an indication of what to look for and notice - the individual peculiar patterns all of us display when processing internal thoughts and how we exhibit that processing on the outside external indicators of internal processing.

if you can learn to recognize the patterns and predicate how the person responds and then learn how to interact what you learn is you do have a reliable system

but not as the chart is typically understood or originally presented. It is truly about calibration and noticing many different things the eyes and their movements being a part of the whole pie.

one one looks at many different indicators, breathing, eye movements, skin color, posture shifts etc etc etc a far more reliable outcome results.

Plus one needs to calibrate - tat means lay down a baseline so you can compare and contrast your observations - that is what the template can help you do - but there are many more things and ways to calibrate.

learning this and much more will definitely increase your batting average.

an operator first calibrates the person during a polygraph session - creating a base line of truthfulness and deceit - then interacts with the participant in running the test and interprets the results - the better -the more skilled the operator the more assured the outcome. But because operator sill can vary among some other issues polygraph is not admissible in a court of law - that isn't to say it isn't useful or reliable but that there are reasonable issues to preclude using it.

In the same way you can become a very good lie detector when you spend the time learning how.

A good area to being is NLP - where this chart has been popularized.

dave


These insights are fascinating, thank you so much for taking the time!

Jay are, can you elaborate on your post?
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I think it is mostly rubbish, with all due respect to the people who have posted.

If a reliable method (aside from personal interaction aka "calibrating") was actually out there, it would be implemented broadly across multiple areas of interest (magic obviously, gambling, job interviews, airport screening, etc.).

Again, with all due respect, but this is pretty much what I took from xersekis' post anyway. You have to figure it out with each person. A gambler would call it looking for tells, an airport screener would refer to it as acting strange, etc. In other words, any chart or general rule is more dangerous than useful.

I could give examples but I'll just refer to the Casino Royale Bond flick. Bond tries using somebody's tell and ends up the worse because of it. It's a film but anybody who gambles regularly or knows somebody who does can attest that this happens, often, in the real world. It is a very dangerous double edged sword.

Charts and general rules: total rubbish. Actually paying attention to the person: the way to go. These are not the same thing even though I think people here are equating them. Just my opinion, however I did back it up with examples, something almost always missing in a discussion of this sort.

L
Jay Are
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There are two camps...

I happen to belong to the one that thinks watching the eyes is the key to deciphering a lie is a load of BS.

Richard Wiseman touches on this in his great book "Quirkology"...

It is much easier/more accurate to discern a lie by paying close attention to the verbage used.

Hint -- people who are fabricating stories tend to want to distance themselves from the story -- so they do not usually use the word "I".

I don't want to go into Richard's full study -- but this will shed some light on the ways to tell a liar from a truth teller.

Be careful -- things always get twisted. NLP'ers out there will agree that the "___% of communication is non verbal" line is one classic example of a line used once that has gotten spun and taken WAY out of context. I think the same thing has happened with this bit of info.

at any rate -- check out Quirkology....

great book

http://www.quirkology.com


J
xxx
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Now, speaking from my own experiences, I agree that you do have to calibrate it with each person...

however, that's no great problem, in fact, there's a lovely bit of work in deadly mentalism (ray someone or other, cant remember his name, sorry) that's based on this, and its banachek that states that it can well be different from person to person...

but using and tweaking that routine just a little, can provide numerous safety nets, and give you the practice to use haikus...sorry, eye cues proficiently in a pretty short space of time...

I use them a fair bit, even interwoven into other effects, its good to just drop it into other bits of work "i sense that you just saw such and such image just now..a brief flash of it..." and it can cause them to look a little startled as they admit they did...

works for me anyway...each to their own though...
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Chris K
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Yeah, I'll agree with these last two posts. However, you will both notice that neither of them mentioned the use of charts as the first post and the question posed here did.

I personally think that walking into an experience and using a chart is a recipe for disaster. I have yet to see a definitive use of eye movements as a sole method that is reliable. Rick Maue has some tangentially related ideas in some of his work but it doesn't deal with lying versus telling truth.

You can, of course, COMBINE elements and different methodology. However, for me, a little bit of cold reading is more effective than trying to tie eye movements to thoughts. Again, just me.

So I will stick with my first assessment: Charts and general rules: total rubbish. Actually paying attention to the person: the way to go.

L
Jay Are
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Could not agree more Lem...
xxx
Chris K
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This is a fun conversation actually. Enough information that I could see justification for moving it to Inner Thoughts. Thanks for all the good posts!
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Agreed Lem'...to both comments...charts are ok to learn the basics from, but best to test it out in the field during other effects to get good at these subtle things...

same with muscle reading...
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xersekis
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The "chart" is only an organizing principle - it lets the non-initiated know what to look for. That is the purpose of the templates - so that the user can organize their perceptions NOT that the chart is the ting to believe.

Calibrating everyone - gamblers, airport screeners etc is of course important since not all gamblers do the same thing --- etc. etc.

verbiage is another incredibly useful piece - used together it is even more stronger. There is much else.
there are predictable pattern templates - there are things like DISC system, meta programs, all sorts of behavioral guidance systems can be useful -IF YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT THEY ARE DESIGNED TO DO and HOW THEY WORK - but most people don't they decide whether or not they "believe in them" which is a silly use of their intelligence.

I have been fortunate to work wit law enforcement, hostage negotiators, border patrol, attorneys, doctors, gamblers, you name it - all that use and have been trained in this stuff - by myself and by others,...

but as I always say - if you don't wish to use a wrench in your tool box - don't - after all the tool is only as useful as the person using it is smart....

dave
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Dave,

Nice little touch there to imply that those who don't find a tool useful are not smart. Completely lacking in logic and a bit arrogant, but there you go. I guess arguments are only as good as the person using them is smart (and hey, that does make logical sense, what a switch!).

And, for the record, I am arguing against using it as an organizing principle. To say that you merely need to determine which direction they look when lying implies that all people look in a direction when lying, which I equated to setting somebody up for failure.

Now, compare this to general trends "shifty eyes, sweating, nervousness" and a difference becomes evident. Nobody's saying that it is impossible to tell when somebody is lying only that it is impossible to make up any set of rules whereas you can tell for sure, every time, on everybody. More so, diagrams and eye movements are the weaker among these anyway.

However, feel free to share you opinions and try to slyly denegrate those who don't share it. Arrogance and lack of logic seem to go hand in hand and you have exhibited both on this particular topic, which is too bad as I actually thought this was a thread lacking in the usual drivel that difference in opinions seems to lead to on the Café. Thanks for re-establishing the Café for me, I had started to enjoy being here again.
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I studied it in Madison. I have the book: Frogs into Princes, Bandler & Grinder. Great read!
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xersekis
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No one said it was that it was as simple as you imply - I don't recall anyone stating "merely..."

- what I have said - is to notice pattern - they may look anywhere and somewhere - and most likely they will do it consistently and habitually unless they detect that you detect what they are doing and then they will switch. People are fairly consistent - and you calibrate what they do and look for how they switch - not just where they look... It is the basis of detecting patterns and making predictions about outcomes and actions. It is about comparing and contrasting behaviors - and eyes are only one small clue but one worthy of paying attention to in the whole larger picture.

sadly - and I am not trying to insult at all - you merely or simply don't get it or understand it based on your statements ... your own statements of what someone is looking at -AND AGAIN PLEASE NOTE it is not merely direction...

they may defocus, gaze further off, make haptic movements, make sequential eye movements, blink, stare, all sorts of things - the key is to pay attention to what they do - the eye chart - as I believe we mentioned - is a simplistic and simplified approach and not all the answer - but it is an organizing tool.

The idea of eidetic imagery versus constructed is too a useful distinction but one sorrowfully misunderstood - and yet as successfully been used in interrogations and a myriad of other applications....

And you misunderstand - no one is making a set of rules that anyone can tell at anytime... etc etc

again you have missed the point -

it is a set of distinctions to watch for, to notice (as well as what to listen for etc) to help you - to increase your observational abilities to detect more --- and when you detect more, and notice patterns and deviations and at what times in a behavioral sequence

you can draw conclusions that can be reliable -

and they won't always be reliable nor applicable even for the same person all the time

and you can not extrapolate that to everyone -

and no one has made that claim that I know of --- ever.

What you can do is - as an interrogator improve your ability to notice when someone's deviating form the truth and you have to start at baseline with each person you interrogate. ANd you have to notice whether or not the person you are observing is consistent through time or deviating.

Behaviors do change and you have to be able to notice how, when and for what reason the behaviors vary and change.

but you just have misunderstood the application

and again your statements demonstrate where and when you have not understood how these principles are applied in actual use.

- again not wishing to insult you merely pointing out where you don't know what this tool was and is designed to do or how it is applied and useful. No fault of yours.

Charts aren't meant to be the final word or the truth

they are only an assist - like a map

- which is not the actual territory you travel on but only a representation. THe eye chart and the principles are a representation of what cab occur and what you may wish to watch for - and as it is typically presented - lacking the nuances that make it truly effective. But as typically presented it is a starting point at getting one to pay attention to things one does not normally notice systematically.

It is as much about getting us - you and me - to organize our perceptions as it is about watching another person.

One can successfully use a map, ignore a map, not understand it or be unable to read it, all sorts of possibilities...

but don't worry about the map - it is flawed (as it will always be) - but use what you can...when you can


or in your case ---- don't.

No problem. If you don't like it - or don't understand it -whatever, you don't need to belittle those that do - or the tool itself. You do whatever you do...

but do tell me please on what do you base your statements - what body of work or personal experience...and why... etc. or don't if you prefer not to. Its okay

and then you moved off topic...


Quote:
On 2008-03-25 19:51, Lemniscate wrote:
Dave,

Nice little touch there to imply that those who don't find a tool useful are not smart. Completely lacking in logic and a bit arrogant, but there you go. I guess arguments are only as good as the person using them is smart (and hey, that does make logical sense, what a switch!).

And, for the record, I am arguing against using it as an organizing principle. To say that you merely need to determine which direction they look when lying implies that all people look in a direction when lying, which I equated to setting somebody up for failure.

Now, compare this to general trends "shifty eyes, sweating, nervousness" and a difference becomes evident. Nobody's saying that it is impossible to tell when somebody is lying only that it is impossible to make up any set of rules whereas you can tell for sure, every time, on everybody. More so, diagrams and eye movements are the weaker among these anyway.

However, feel free to share you opinions and try to slyly denegrate those who don't share it. Arrogance and lack of logic seem to go hand in hand and you have exhibited both on this particular topic, which is too bad as I actually thought this was a thread lacking in the usual drivel that difference in opinions seems to lead to on the Café. Thanks for re-establishing the Café for me, I had started to enjoy being here again.
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And Lem I totally agree - paying attention to the person

that is what it is all about

how one goes about it though '

and what one may utilize may differ from person to person

so if one uses charts that is not rubbish any more than one who doesn't

(tolerance starts at home...Lem)

and still I do agree with your statement about paying attention - and again - no one is making up a universal set of rules - that was the domain of shifty eyes in the old days...

but if you understand what one may be doing when they are shifting their eyes (shifty eyes) it may eb the basis of whole new understanding and communicating with that person.

eye charts were originally designed to get people to pay attention to what they previously had never noticed
and there are lots of things besides eyes to notice and to take into account. NO ONE HAS EVR SAID
they eyes are everything... only an aspect of the greater picture...

anyway be well

---
xersekis
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This line was rather blunt - I apologize for the bluntness but maintain the point I was making

- a tool is only as useful as the person using it --- someone truly clever may use tools in ways beyond their original intention and in ways others would not recognize as useful --- they may innovate where others don't or can't. Some will only see tings as they are -- others may see them not only as they are but as they could be
etc.

the smarter (and smart is perhaps not the best choice of words )the person (the better choice would be "wise"
the wiser the person --- the more useful the tool

because wisdom is a result of success and failure and the ability to learn and make adjustments - wisdom is the result of trial and error - in other words experience through time

so I apologize for the word smart

and hopefully have elaborated my intended meaning enough...



Quote:
On 2008-03-21 18:00, xersekis wrote:

but as I always say - if you don't wish to use a wrench in your tool box - don't - after all the tool is only as useful as the person using it is smart....

dave
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