Larry Jennings' "The Close-Up Illusion" trick from Louis Falanga's "Lake Tahoe Card Magic" book, is a classic.

Geoff Williams BRILLIANT handling has been released on DVD by Kozmo Magic:
http://www.kozmomagic.com

His handling "has been released"? Come on; the trick is on Geoff's DVD, Miracles for Mortals, volume 1. The video clip is the exact video from the DVD. Why sell just this trick, when for another $17.00, you get 7 other effects as well as Invisible Deck finesse!! It is a great DVD, by the way. I can see if improvements or different handlings have progressed, but selling this as a single item seems a bit cheesy. At least disclose in the ad that you can get a much better deal with the entire DVD-I suppose some people who don't have the extra $17.00 would get this one trick, but geez-save the money for the full DVD. I would be angry if I bought this, then found out it is on a full length DVD with other effects. Chris, I am sure you know this.

Sorry, I did not see your post elsewhere. This was the topic of a new post, so I thought it was new. I think my comments have value for the person who does not know about the Miracles for Mortals DVD; apparently my information was duplicated (by you). Your first sentence cleared things up, but I don't really appreciate nor think I deserve the inflammatory tone behind the next two sentences. I have been a member here for 3-4 years and my username is just the name I picked to sign up at the time-kenodad is also my e-mail address; my dog's name through much of my schooling was Keno. My real name is John Dahlinger. I did not realize one should post their photo and real name to be considered a "real" member and not get called names (wow, "clown poster," nice). If you would like to investigate some of my ("clown")posts why don't you do a search under my username. I did not mean to offend you (which I assume I must have to get stabbed at), but I was surprised that you recommended this single trick, when the entire DVD has so much more and this single trick doesn't' apparently add anything compared to what is on the dvd. In general I think your comments are very good (I do read a lot more than I post). You might see me on Mike Close's forum; I will be John Clown Dahlinger

The link I gave was to Kozmo Magic. They have the single DVD and the two DVD set it came from on the same page, so...consumers are informed about it all.

1) You should have checked the link I gave.

2) You could have helped folks by posting that the "I Hate David Copperfield trick" is taken from a 2 DVD set by Kozmo magic and, in your opinion, folks "might" get better value for their money buy buying the set ( but, some folks just want the one trick ).

3) Instead, you adopted an acusatory tone with "I would be angry if I bought this, then found out it is on a full length DVD with other effects. Chris, I am sure you know this".

Thus endeth the lesson.
:rotf:

Sorry to interrupt, and I just want to share my opinion here.

It simply does not make any sense when you pay $35 for 8 to 10 brilliant effects from Geoff Williams while at the same time a single effect trim out for another one trick DVD for $17 (shipping excluded). I simply do not get what is the motto of the publisher besides making an unparallel balance of profit. Are we going to see the DVD will again be trim out into 20 single effect DVDs?

Miracles for mortals vol. 1 & 2 are great DVDs and it let me admire the creative mind of Geoff Williams, as soon as I saw this mentioned single trick DVD, I feel disappoint to particular publisher.

It may create a bad example to people that it is kind of easy money can be made by magic. I just feel really sad about it.

Good grief.. I see and feel absolutely nothing upsetting about Geoff Williams "I Hate David Copperfield Trick." Bottom line - it's your choice. Chris is stating a fact and the information is for you to use or not use. So, let's cheers to the power of information and freedom!

Let me help. The reason we released this piece by its self for $20 is we thought it had value. What you guys don't understand is that the "Miracles" were best sellers but let me first say this. There are maybe 500,000 magicians in the world...and the "miracles" dvd's sold about 1/500th of that. I went to a convention in florida last year and put the 20 something products that we have produced over the years and as Magi walked by I asked them if they had seen any of these products and they said No...1 in 20 had seen any of these projects. NOT very good so we decided that we would re-release projects that real value and we are currently doing that. We have built a "new" trailer for the Miracles set and that should be up soon so we are promoting both the Copperfield and miracles.

We are certainly not trying to take advantage of anyone. We believe that the Geoff Williams project is a great value and that everyone should have it, reaching everyone is a little different.

Let me also talk about profit because that was addressed. You know nothing about this business and how much it costs to produce something. Even something that has already been produced. If 490,000 magicians have never heard of a product then why should we not continue to try to profit from it? Its not our intent to take advantage of anyone. The fact is 1 trick DVD'S sell way better than compliation sets. It not even close!

Another example would be the "AS I Recall" DVD set. Best seller, about 1000 pieces. Now to give you an idea. 1000 pieces at $28 jobber rate. $28,000 seems like a lot unless you take away the 2 years it took to produce it and the 1000's of hours editing and the travel and the crew. And the quetion is, how many have been replicated? Stolen? The Cloak, Justin Miller....2 weeks after it was released we have data that from just one site it had been downloaded 3000 times. They just stole it, took it. I'm not crying about it but we need to maximize our profits and by re-releasing a quality product certainly is not underhanded in anyway.

If you own the Miracles set I appreciate your business and I hope this helps explain the situation

thanks
Koz

Maybe in the advertising it's worth telling people that this routine can be found on Geoff's "Miracles" set.

Just a thought.

It's a great effect by the way.

Craig.

Glad you like it! I beleive but I'm not sure its on the trailer.....but the same places we advertise this we also advertise the williams set....options for the buyer I guess

koz

Imho this was a very useful post! I don't know what's so "clownish" about that post????
But I might be considered a "clown poster" as well since I use a nickname instead of my real name (and I got only a few posts too!) Also I'm a "lurker" on this forum for many many years and up to now I have never ever heard the term "clown poster"
Just my 2 cents!

When an annoymous poister says "I would be angry if I bought this, then found out it is on a full length DVD with other effects. Chris, I am sure you know this"

He's accusing me of something. I'm only saying it's been relased. I don't own the company, work for the company, met anyone related to the company.

So, that's clown posting.

Chris, I can see now how my post was misinterpreted. What I meant by "I am sure you know this" is that you know it is part of his set. I was only "accusing" you of leaving that part out of your post-you have always seemed a very straight-shooter in your posts, and I appreciate that. As I said previously, your first sentence was a polite response to my poorly expressed post (I should not have mentioned your name, and I do apologize). In any case, I do not think I should have been called a "clown-poster." (And I still do not understand how clown-posting describes someone who accuses someone of something, but maybe that information is given on a "need to know" basis only to "real" members. My post was meant to set the record straight and express my frustration at the release of a new product that is already available in a product with more value. It was advertised on HP with no mention of Geoff's other DVD's, so less informed buyers may make a purchase that they would not make if they new otherwise (as I said, I would be angry).

Hmmm...I've seen clown posts from people with a name and a picture as well. Chris, I hope you're not implying that Koz is a clown as well since he doesn't show a real name and picture. I have a lot of respect for tedb (Koz). I think a poster's value is in the words he/she writes and not in the name (that may or not be real) and picture (again, which may or may not be real). I have my name posted, but no picture, so I guess my posts are half-clown posts, whatever that means.

Anyway, I cannot speak highly enough of Geoff's Miracle for Mortals set. Koz, you did a great job! I will definitely check out other items on your site. Justin Miller's X Marks the Spot is calling my name!

Thanks all. From one clown to another...

Barry

Tedb,
Thank you for the information; I have often wondered about the behind-the-scenes activity related to magic DVD's. The one trick vs commpilation fact is fascinating. I do own several of your products and I think they are high quality. I do not have a problem with releasing something previously released if there is a market, but if that is done, I think that it should be clearly revealed in the ad copy and there should be some other added value-new handling, new presentation, even real-world video; I would be willing to purchase something again with one or more of those things (an example would be Fiber optics extended "re-release"). Also, releasing a new single trick would serve as marketing the other (ie if you like Geoff's new trick, check out his other effects in his DVD's, Miracles for Mortals). If all those magicians missed the Miracles for Mortals DVD's, won't they also miss the single release trick? Why not just readvertise the Miracles for Mortals DVD?
John

Barry,
Well-said. If I have doubts about someone's credibility or truthfulness or clowniness, I will check their previous posts; I could care less about their photos or name.
John

I think this will only be a problem if magicians who own the Miracles set buy the single effect dvd because they think there are some new ideas or different handlings. Then they will be disappointed, that would suck to buy the same thing twice and not be able to return it.

Kenodad, yea I guess we could but were trying to maxamize profits...i will say this, we are in no way trying to mis-represent our product or take advantage of anyone...it has always been a curiosity as to why one trick dvd's are more popular and sell better.....in the case of williams we had when the miracles set came out one of the biggest magic dealers in the world refuse to carry the williams set but said if the Copperfield effect was a one trick dvd they would buy it? so your guess is as good as mine..

I also see your point in letting them know in the ads that its available on the miracles set...

to be honest this whole thing is an experiment in trying to reach new customers and it will...

the thing is, theres not all that much that's good out there and when we have something we try to maximize it...and that's what were doing here

Hi John. I can understand and appreciate your concern but Ted really hit the nail on the head in all of his posts here. I was very familiar with Geoff's great work for many years from old lecture notes, etc. Ted and I were at LVMI and Ted loved Geoff's work. The 3 of us sat down and negotiated the Miracles for Mortals DVDs. However this magic market is a bit quirky. Overall I'd say these DVDs were generally overlooked. My people were not familiar with Geoff's name so overlooked these. Instead they may have purchased DVDs from a bigger name, some new hip DVD, etc. I can tell you Ted has produced a few other DVDs that are PACKED with killer USABLE real world magic and they too have have been overlooked - Dan Tong DVDs, Lonnie Chevrie DVDs, etc. Ted and I often shake our heads as we KNOW the strength of the material for those wising to have real world material. But the sales show that people would rather have the dream... not necessarily the real practical usable material.

The trend seems to be more and more for single trick DVDs. Gone overall are the days of Joe Smith and his magic repertoire. I think people want the "editing" to be done for them- in other words they want someone to pick THE best item and put it on a DVD. They don't want to sit through 10 or 12 routines even if it is a better value. To some dealers the other material clouds the best material. It's a lot like what is happening with the music industry. It used to be a musician put out an album (I'm dating myself LOL) or CD and it contained a number of their releases with maybe one or two true highlights. Certainly the other music was not filler but maybe just not the shining star that one or sometimes two pieces were. This allowed them to get the other non highlights (but no doubt GREAT music) out as well. Those days are coming to an end with iTunes, downloads, etc. - people are ONLY buying the highlights. This is having a big effect on the music industry for artists as some of their non highlight music will not see the light of day. Ted (and I) felt that in particular Geoff's version of Jennings Illusion was too good to let slip through the cracks.

I can also assure you as Ted has conveyed that magic is not a huge money making venture for most artists/producers/dealers/distributors compared to other fields like music. Until you start doing this and seeing the costs, profits, margins, etc. it's hard to convey. On just a DVD you have to pay the artist, the filming team (and travel, hotels, etc.), the production people (editing, etc.), the graphic artists, the replicator, the shippers, etc. Most DVDs don't really make profit until you have to rerun them (and that can often be never). The magic market is a niche market so you don't sell millions of CDs like you do in the music field. More and more piracy, illegal downloads, and unethical sharing (magic clubs, magic friends, etc.) are greatly impacting sales and making many producers question whether it is worth it.

Here I think Ted did the right thing in pulling and highlight a wonderful piece of magic and giving the market what it is calling for. As noted by a someone above they don't have to buy this... they can chose to buy the Magic for Mortals DVDs for a bunch of great material or if they just want one great slam bam, powerful, practical effect they can get this.

BTW... in this discussion, IF you missed this GREAT effect you should buy this DVD or Magic For Mortals. Geoff has some killer thinking and this item in particular looks like it is done with trick photography.

Thanks for addressing your concern though as I think good positive professional criticism helps us all grow, evaluate, etc.

Tim Trono

Thanks for clarifying your logic behind things-it does help me understand. And I do have Miracles for Mortals, the Finally DVD's as well as the Lonnie Chevrie's DVD's-all great. Thanks for sharing-and for ME, thanks for sharing compliations
John

Great post, Barry. I couldn't agree more! Chalk me up as a clown, as well.
As for Geoff's "Miracles" set (and anything Koz releases)... they get my highest recommendation.


Best regards,
Evan