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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Tricks & Effects » » Nail Roulette (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Sealegs
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Quote:
On 2009-05-06 01:29, dinger136 wrote:
Since it has already been mentioned, Shattered is the ONLY safe way to do this effect


No it isn't. Try reading the post 3 above your own.

Rick, I know you obviously want to protect your sales of Scorpion but I don't know how you can write;
Quote:
I don't see how the performer could possibly miss
when there are plenty of instances of people, for whatever reason, doing just that with this kind of effect

You then go on to say;
Quote:
No one would be doing a 180 degree above the head Criss Angel hand slam with the Scorp.


Yeah sure they wont. Rather than trying to promote the idea that a performer doing this effect can't "possibly miss" I think it would be healthier and more ethical if you either stayed neutral on the subject or alternatively acknowledged that if the performer makes a mistake performing this effect there is the possibility that injury could result.

I hope this post doesn't sound agressive in tone, it certainly isn't meant to. I don't expect Rick to be responsible for any performers loss of concentration/brain farts/stupidity/general failings; I just think it isn't helpful to suggest that; a) it's not possible that any mistake could be made and; b) that if one is(?) it won't do any real damage.

Neal.
Neal Austin

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Roth
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Neal do you have Scorpion?

Are you suggesting that a severe injury like the ones that are "really" being hinted at about here i.e. youtube video of spikes and nails going through hands is the kind of injury Scorpion can cause?

"I don't see how a performer could possibly miss" is based on several methods that can be used to give you a 100% positive reading.

Now if someone decided to just forget using any method, and just take a wild guess at it then they could miss.

And if they were that stupid to not use the very simple method in the Inst. what kind of injury would they get?

This isn't a 4 inch nail or spike, it's a little ball of 1/2 inch spikes so close together that you could roll it in the palm of your hand.

I don't have to "protect" the sales of Scorpion Smile I've sold hundreds of them and never had an email from anyone that "injured" themselves.

As far as the possibility of inflicting "severe injury" (unless you include pin pricks in the palm of your hand as a "severe injury") I stand by what I said above.

That's the exact reason I posted. Scorpion is for those that don't want to risk severe injury.

Now, I hope I didn't come across defensive.

I apologize to Jon Allen for hijacking his thread.
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Jon Allen
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Hi Randi & Robert,

The Pain Game does not look expensive because I do not want it to look like I am using 'props'. I could have had foam pads on the bottom of the wooden blocks and had them lacquered. However, I just want them each to look like a simple block of wood with a hole in it.

As for 'mechanical marvel', well a wheel is a mechanical marvel and it's pretty basic Smile I can tell you that it is not just a nail and some blocks of wood. No bags are switched in or out either. The performance on the video was done at the end of an over-running lecture and so it is rushed. Dipping down behind the table was done purely so that nobody could see where the bag I put the nail in is in the setup. Much has been made of this and I am sorry it look suspicious. The good thing is that it means the actual method is well hidden! Smile

On Friday I will be able to record a better version. It will not be in front of an audience but it will show you how clean the effect is. All the mixing will be above board... and above the table Smile

Quote:
________________________________________________________________________________

I don't see how the performer could possible miss
________________________________________________________________________________

Roth, it is possible (but I should add HIGHLY unlikely) to miss.... possibly in the same way you missed the 'y' key when aiming to write 'possibly'? Smile

The Scorpion seems to be the link between highly dangerous (nails, knives etc.) and too safe (eggs). If someone does make a misake then serious injuries will not ensue. I've said it before, and Neal also mentioned it, that mistakes happen because of some human ability to screw up a thought process which is enhanced by the pressure of performing. Even if you know exactly where the object is, you are thinking about it and that is why, for some psychological reason, there is a slim possibilty of you going for it rather than avoiding it.

I don't want to scare people out of buying these routines but the risk, no matter how small, is there and needs to be taken seriously. In fact, thinking you are safe when the method allows for a mistake, will cause someone to drop their mental guard down a little more than usual.

This thread is about Nail Roulette so all discussion is welcome and I definitely don't feel you have hijacked it! You have a good effect and I happen to feel I do as well Smile
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randirain
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Quote:
On 2009-05-06 06:11, Jon Allen wrote:
Hi Randi

The Pain Game does not look expensive because I do not want it to look like I am using 'props'. I could have had foam pads on the bottom of the wooden blocks and had them lacquered. However, I just want them each to look like a simple block of wood with a hole in it.

As for 'mechanical marvel', well a wheel is a mechanical marvel and it's pretty basic Smile I can tell you that it is not just a nail and some blocks of wood. No bags are switched in or out either. The performance on the video was done at the end of an over-running lecture and so it is rushed. Dipping down behind the table was done purely so that nobody could see where the bag I put the nail in is in the setup. Much has been made of this and I am sorry it look suspicious. The good thing is that it means the actual method is well hidden! Smile

On Friday I will be able to record a better version. It will not be in front of an audience but it will show you how clean the effect is. All the mixing will be above board... and above the table Smile


Fair enough.

Randi
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MagicbyCarlo
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I love these type effects. I always ask though, why is the performer doing it?

Personally I use the SMASH AND STAB gimmick, I do it blindfolded. I like it. My personal feeling is that you must perform that version with clear purpose. Note the position of the spike and focus on the others. I spent a lot of time riding mountain bike on rough trails, you didn't focus on the obstacle, you focus on the path around the obstacle.

Since my presentation doesn't involve audience members hands, I'm willing to take the risk. I'm not sure what the psychology of people missing is, but if I feel the slightest doubt, I will simply quit at that point and not trust my "intuition".

Jon, I love your stuff (silent treatment, destination box, spectators don't exist) and I do see your point about cost vs. cost, but at $500 I personally don't feel the overall "effect" justifies that expense. There are many ways both high tech and low tech to get this type of effect done. My philosophy with this effect is the same as I use when handling firearms, always treat the weapon like its loaded.
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Sealegs
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Well I'm pleased to see Rick wrote this...
Quote:
Now if someone decided to just forget using any method, and just take a wild guess at it then they could miss.


...because it is effectively what's happened in all those youtube clips of people stabbing themselves (and others!)on various blades, nails and spikes. Those peformers effectively momentarily forgot the method. They knew where the object was but somehow their minds mistook, 'that's the one to avoid', for 'that's the one to go for'. As Jon puts it, they had a brain fart. It's what can sometimes happen on account of human beings being fallible.

I'm sure it's the case that no one's made this mistake with Scorpion but just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it's not possible.

Unless a routine has been devised such that you couldn't hurt yourself, EVEN IF DURING THE ROUTINE YOU SET ABOUT TO DO SO then these accidents can happen. And if they can happen, given enough shows, from enough performers, somewhere at some point they almost certainly will.

I don't own Scorpion but have handled one an am absolutely sure that I, or anyone that owned one, wouldn't want to experience their hand being forcefully slamed down onto it. Maybe I'm more of a wimp than Rick but for me that would constitute more than pin pricks.

I don't have anything against these sort of effects (although from a personal point of view I'd much rather stick with an 'accident proof' version of them such as my own Staple Gun Routine or, from what I understand, Jon's 'Pain Game' effect) I actually think that Scorpion is a great tool for pinning a theatrical story to for this kind of Russian Roulette effect. However I also believe that if there is a danger that you could accidently make a mistake and hurt yourself, even if through making a mistake, it's better to acknowledge this rather than pretending it can't possibly happen.

Also apologies to Jon for some what deviating from his thread.

Neal.
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MagicbyCarlo
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I watched the video and I'm certain that what you're getting for the money is much more than a nail and some blocks of wood. LOL, Jon, if it is what I think it is, it's genius! I'm still not sure about the price, but it's very clever Smile
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Just received The Pain Game directly from Jon moments ago. Some brief comments...

It's an ingenious approach. Very clever thinking and the props are perfectly made.

The voucher for the free bottle of champagne was a nice touch as well.

Thanks Jon!

Joe
Jon Allen
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Quote:
On 2009-05-06 13:52, MagicbyCarlo wrote:
I love these type effects. I always ask though, why is the performer doing it?

Personally I use the SMASH AND STAB gimmick, I do it blindfolded. I like it. My personal feeling is that you must perform that version with clear purpose. Note the position of the spike and focus on the others. I spent a lot of time riding mountain bike on rough trails, you didn't focus on the obstacle, you focus on the path around the obstacle.



Carlo,

Your initial question is one that should be asked not just for this effect but all magic tricks in general.

I also love your analogy with bike riding. It's the same when vanishing a coin in that one should not think about hiding the coin but revealing the disappearance.

The Pain Game is not meant for casual performances but for a formal show. Like any prop, if it is something you are going to go out and perform, and make an integral part of your act, then it will be worth the money. Add to this the fact you have absolutely zilch to worry about with regards impaling yourself.
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The Silent Treatment - Digital Edition: this iconic routine just got upgraded! Watch - http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=phTDUhX0m9o
Order the bar-raising DVD set 'Connection' at www.onlinemagicshop.co.uk
MagicbyCarlo
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Quote:
On 2009-05-06 18:20, Jon Allen wrote:

Carlo,

Your initial question is one that should be asked not just for this effect but all magic tricks in general.

I also love your analogy with bike riding. It's the same when vanishing a coin in that one should not think about hiding the coin but revealing the disappearance.

The Pain Game is not meant for casual performances but for a formal show. Like any prop, if it is something you are going to go out and perform, and make an integral part of your act, then it will be worth the money. Add to this the fact you have absolutely zilch to worry about with regards impaling yourself.

Jon,

We're on the same page, this is certainly not ridiculously priced for a full time professional performer. There certainly is a value to having a 100% foolproof, safe yet convincing method; in addition to production costs, and R&D.

I can't wait to add it to my kids birthday party shows.
Just kidding! For my kid's shows I use a drugged gerbil and 3 Twinkies.
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Scott Fridinger
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Sealegs--"
"No it isn't. Try reading the post 3 above your own."

OK, so is your routine on the market, so that we would know the method if purchased??

Additionally, I would consider a stable gun routine, where you have a device like a gun that you shoot into your head/hand in a slightly different genre then the spike/nail/cup roulette originally mentioned.

Look, if you have a sharp object that you are really using under a cup, there is always a chance you screw up. Shattered does not have that problem.

Second, a device such as a nail gun may be "configured" to not work, but if the same gun can also be used to work, you take the chance of either "forgetting" what to do, or face a mechanical failure.

Again, there is no mechanical failure with shattered.

I am glad YOUR gun is accident proof, and hope that it never fails you.
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Sealegs
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Dinger136,

I've made my routine available here on the Café free to anyone who PM'd me for it. So it's not exactly been on the market but I have put it out there. (or rather out here)and made it available to those that might follow threads on this kind of subject and so be interested.

However your post has made me reconsider giving it away for free anymore as you've made it apparent to me that in fact my thinking behind it is probably more significant than I'd given myself credit for.

For that I thank you.Smile

Neal
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Real Danger by Aldo Colombini.
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"Shattered is the ONLY safe way to do this effect"Hilarious I am so sure you are not aware of all methods for performing this effect, I have several of my own methods that I can guarantee are 100% fool proof, so sure that my 2 favorite methods can be done with an audience s?upplied blindfold & I do not have to fear injury, yet they both use a true knife or 6 inch nail. HMM Jon's routine looks very familiar?
JSBLOOM
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Kuffs has an interesting danger effect that is 100% safe, but no nails are used.
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I know this isn't a nail roulette routine but neither is shattered and it has been talked about.....so my favorite is Higley's traps-a-monte-mental. Fun, safe even if you forget.
rowdymagi5
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Kuffs marketed his version before Shattered hit the market.Same effect!
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If this would not be giving anything away, do you have to wear a jacket?

John
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Jon Allen
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Hi John,

No you do not need to wear a jacket.

Jon
Paragon 3D - the most incredible Card to Clear Box you will ever own. Be fooled here: http://youtu.be/GQxRZ1OGkUo
The Silent Treatment - Digital Edition: this iconic routine just got upgraded! Watch - http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=phTDUhX0m9o
Order the bar-raising DVD set 'Connection' at www.onlinemagicshop.co.uk
Rotten
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I owned and performed Death Trap for a couple years before selling it. I am thinking about adding this type of effect to the show again but I would like to see better video of this routine. Is there any? The price is very dear.

Regards,
Will
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