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12345
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In regards to selling magic, I've noticed that E was the most successful at "borrowing" tricks and re marketing as their own, then something happen and Cory left to a group of magicians with ya know Wayne and those guys. I was excited to see new stuff.

But I'm very disappointed as I notice their just doing the exact same thing. "borrowing" classic tricks, yes maybe a new method or two but still selling at high prices for something I could of paid less for from the original creator.

Is this the way magic is heading?
Or am I blind and this has been happening since the beginning of magic???
tdowell
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Very little in magic is "new" or "original", and I'm sure marketing has existed for a long time, but I do think the internet age has changed the landscape quite a bit in the last few years.

There is a definite trend in marketing effects invented by others, or improved upon or altered by others. Companies like Ellusionist or Theory 11 have simply brought a modern and sexy look to the package. Those companies market to a more street savvy younger generation looking for the "latest" thing in magic.

Another most interesting and somewhat disturbing trend is the "one trick dvd". Someone borrows a known principal and simply comes up with a new presentation and sells it on a DVD for $20-$50. Years ago, these one trick wonders would have been part of a book of effects or a VHS with a number of other effects on it.

I think your observation is correct, this is the way its heading, fueled by the instant wealth of information available on the net.
The Whisperer
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I wont start one of my deep lectures and discuss here how I feel about this disturbingly profound subject, but I will agree with both of you. Something that really bothers me is this movement in magic where a few people are concerned in only marketing an effect. I just hate it because a lot of these don't bother to go out and test the effect first, not to say that all websites do this just these few select ones. The only thing that is mastered and really thought out is the hype. I wont say anymore before it gets ugly....
Sh3ldon
meyegr
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A market place can also dictate this approach. 'Consumers' now seem to demand things all spelled out, clean and ready to go - NOW.
ted french
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What Ellusionist effects were "borrowed", before you answer don't use cardwarp because I'm pretty sure that has been resolved.
P3
practice practice perform.
Doctor D
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I am not completely convinced T11 is 'borrowing', as you call it, other people's material. Control, Witness and a number of 1-on-1's are material originated by Houchin, Asher et al respectively. It is true, however, that some items (like Witness, the BS Control, Shifty, Schwing and Three Fry) were published before.

As for the single item releases: there are good and bad sides. Apparently, the single effect DVD's sell better (or so I read in a topic concerning Geoff Williams' I Hate David Copperfield), I believe that is because of the trend of 'instant gratification'. Also, you don't have to sit through any material you don't want, simply because it isn't there.

On the bad side, the price per effect increases. Whereas DVD's usually go by $30-40 for anywhere between 5 and 25 effects (depending on who's the creator), these single effect DVDs go for around $20-30, depending on whether any props are included or not. Some will argue that you still get your money's worth, but I'm not sure that was the point here.

I will say this: sometimes I am more excited or inspired by an item on a compilation DVD that I didn't expect or even know about. With the dissappearance of these hidden gems, either everyone starts doing them (making them not hidden), or they might not even be published at all...
evikshin
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Quote:
On 2008-03-29 04:01, KazarSh3ldon wrote:
I wont start one of my deep lectures and discuss here how I feel about this disturbingly profound subject, but I will agree with both of you. Something that really bothers me is this movement in magic where a few people are concerned in only marketing an effect. I just hate it because a lot of these don't bother to go out and test the effect first, not to say that all websites do this just these few select ones. The only thing that is mastered and really thought out is the hype. I wont say anymore before it gets ugly....
Sh3ldon


As was pointed out to me by many others, Liquid Card Through Window is a good example of the above (unfortunately). I almost bought it too...

Evikshin
hefemexy
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I agree whole heartedly I bought dvd's from these places and only get one effect it is somewhat disappointing,
Okay, I give up what was your card?

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mantel
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Quote:
On 2008-03-29 08:05, ted french wrote:
What Ellusionist effects were "borrowed"


Infusion
Axis Change
Mercury
etc.
Quote:
On 2008-03-29 08:05, ted french wrote:
don't use cardwarp because I'm pretty sure that has been resolved.


Since when?

Reagards,

Mantel
Joaquin
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The problem is not the drug dealers who offer the drugs. It is the consumers who demand for them.

Where there is a need there is always someone that can satisfy it.

The problem is not E or Theory11. It is all of us who have unsatified needs for more and new magic
daviaac
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Quote:
On 2008-03-29 11:36, Doctor D wrote:

It is true, however, that some items (like Witness, the BS Control, Shifty, Schwing and Three Fry) were published before.



It should be noted that although they were published before it was Chris kenner and the team at T11 whom published these routines and it is also kenner and everyone else who is now re-releasing them. This isn't so bad I think the argument should be releasing somebody else's published effect without consent and as a one trick DVD. It should also be noted that this has been done before i.e. Gregory Wilson's later DVD's (in my opinion) regurgitate effects from his earlier DVD's.
- the secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources
WolfGod
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Quote:
On 2008-03-28 19:05, 12345 wrote:
Or am I blind and this has been happening since the beginning of magic???


Yes and yes. Welcome to the wonderful world of art and artists.

Quote:
On 2008-03-29 11:36, Doctor D wrote:
On the bad side, the price per effect increases. Whereas DVD's usually go by $30-40 for anywhere between 5 and 25 effects (depending on who's the creator), these single effect DVDs go for around $20-30, depending on whether any props are included or not. Some will argue that you still get your money's worth, but I'm not sure that was the point here.


You're right that those are pretty outrageous prices.

But we must also remember that they're priced this way because the companies know we're willing to shell out that kind of cash. Also, it really isn't that bad provided we exercise a little moderation.

Quote:
On 2008-12-18 17:41, Joaquin wrote:
The problem is not E or Theory11. It is all of us who have unsatified needs for more and new magic


Smart man. These companies exist because people demand their products. And they're very good at creating brand loyalty.

Better to protest with one's wallet than one's mouth.
Tim Jahn
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Quote:
On 2008-12-18 20:30, WolfGod wrote:
Quote:
On 2008-03-28 19:05, 12345 wrote:
Or am I blind and this has been happening since the beginning of magic???


Yes and yes. Welcome to the wonderful world of art and artists.

Quote:
On 2008-03-29 11:36, Doctor D wrote:
On the bad side, the price per effect increases. Whereas DVD's usually go by $30-40 for anywhere between 5 and 25 effects (depending on who's the creator), these single effect DVDs go for around $20-30, depending on whether any props are included or not. Some will argue that you still get your money's worth, but I'm not sure that was the point here.


You're right that those are pretty outrageous prices.

But we must also remember that they're priced this way because the companies know we're willing to shell out that kind of cash. Also, it really isn't that bad provided we exercise a little moderation.

Quote:
On 2008-12-18 17:41, Joaquin wrote:
The problem is not E or Theory11. It is all of us who have unsatified needs for more and new magic


Smart man. These companies exist because people demand their products. And they're very good at creating brand loyalty.

Better to protest with one's wallet than one's mouth.


Great post! You are 100% correct.
Andrew, (ASW)
The effects on the DVD and lecture notes are far beyond your abilities. (They require mastery of the mechanic's grip.) It would only break your heart.
Sincerely,
Darwin Ortiz.......(This post has got to be in my top 5.)
fooksau
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On 2008-12-18 20:30, WolfGod wrote:
Yes and yes. Welcome to the wonderful world of art and artists.



I doubt serious and talented artists of the past spent their time worrying about who they were going to teach what they knew.
How many Magicians does it take to advertise a trick? Three.. One to steal the trick. One to steal HIS trick. And one to write a good review.
Sid Helkule
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Quote:
On 2008-12-18 21:37, Tim Jahn wrote:
Quote:
On 2008-12-18 20:30, WolfGod wrote:
Quote:
On 2008-03-28 19:05, 12345 wrote:
Or am I blind and this has been happening since the beginning of magic???


Yes and yes. Welcome to the wonderful world of art and artists.

Quote:
On 2008-03-29 11:36, Doctor D wrote:
On the bad side, the price per effect increases. Whereas DVD's usually go by $30-40 for anywhere between 5 and 25 effects (depending on who's the creator), these single effect DVDs go for around $20-30, depending on whether any props are included or not. Some will argue that you still get your money's worth, but I'm not sure that was the point here.


You're right that those are pretty outrageous prices.

But we must also remember that they're priced this way because the companies know we're willing to shell out that kind of cash. Also, it really isn't that bad provided we exercise a little moderation.

Quote:
On 2008-12-18 17:41, Joaquin wrote:
The problem is not E or Theory11. It is all of us who have unsatified needs for more and new magic


Smart man. These companies exist because people demand their products. And they're very good at creating brand loyalty.

Better to protest with one's wallet than one's mouth.


Great post! You are 100% correct.


Good lord! Could Wolfgod and Tim have agreed on something?!?! Could planet Earth have just been knocked off it's axis?!?! Incredible...

Luke
WolfGod
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Quote:
On 2008-12-18 22:55, fooksau wrote:
I doubt serious and talented artists of the past spent their time worrying about who they were going to teach what they knew.


They spent a lot of time wondering how to make more money. What, you think the art world was always pure and virtuous until the internet came along?
Joaquin
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On the other hand there are several old effects that have been modified and improved by various of their talented performers. It is only through these websites that we can found about it and appreciate them or not.

Yes I agree that the art world was more pure and keept underground. However, I buy a lot of magic through the internet and I am so happy that there is so much to choose from because I love it.

But I guess the problem comes when we buy just about everything they offer.

I am glad the Café helps a lot in this decision process thoug.
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