Sure, the video isn't private anymore, looking forward to your comments on it.


8

This is ridiculous. The guy states he has a new way of palming a card. People ask him questions that he absolutely does not understand. He doesn't even know what a lateral palm is-- yet he claims this is new and that he invented it. Not only that, he's got a serous attitude problem.

What KILLS me is that people just as ignorant as he is are congratulating him on his "invention".

This kid doesn't want to add anything to the art-- he just wants praise from a group who knows as little as he does.

This is why I left. It's also why I'm leaving again.

Steven Youell

Steven, the Café needs people like you! I was recently reviewing/practicing with both Scruffy and Hacking the Pass. Both amazing! There are many here who can deeply benefit from your postings, don't ever forget that. As an artist you have so much to share with the community. You only make things better. There is nothing new under the sun, but sometimes it takes awhile to figure this out.

LaConte:

Bah! Very few people here want to learn. Most of them want to build or repair their self-esteem. Example: there are people in this thread that know what I'm talking about. Yet they've babied this guy. They're not doing him any favors. The quicker he learns that he's not qualified to judge whether a move is new or not the better he'll be off. And the sooner someone tells him how unqualified he is to post a video, he'll be in even better shape.

If he gets the message, he's on his way to learning something. If he doesn't get the message and goes away because his feelings got hurt, both he and magic will be better off because he wouldn't have learned anything anyway.

And by the way-- my mentors put me through the same process as above.

Steven Youell

Steve! Good to see you around! Been a while hasn't it? Hey...did you and I have some of the same mentors? I'm still missing those teeth....
Seriously though, I think the Café needs you if for no other reason than to offset the mutual admiration that has become the norm around here.

Take care,

Dorian

He palms the card with his feet..
Steve you should of said I was your mentor LOl.. any how as Dorian said good to have you back
the godfather

The links to the video's are dead or are not working

I do believe he said in his original post that he BELIEVES he came up with a unique and new way. He never stated that he knows for a fact that it is new. Calm down people, sheesh.

And anyway, so what if it has been done before, he reinvented the wheel. Just because he doesn't know how to do a certain palm gives him less credibility.

And just so everyone is clear, it is people like Steven Youell that make it harder and harder for me to come back to this place. The egos on some of you guys are rediculous.

Nothing to do with my ego-- I don't even have a dog in this race. Nothing to sell, nothing to gain. I'm trying to teach the guy something, not feed his overly sensitive ego. There are people on this forum AND on this thread that know I'm right, but they apparently care more about making sure everyone here likes them rather than giving a guy just starting out the plain truth, so he can deal with it, get over it and start getting better at Magic.

Here's the facts:

You should not even use the WORDS original towards a move you believe you came up with until you do the following:

1) Discuss it in private with some very knowledgable Cardmen.
2) Spend a year researching every palm in print and on DVD to note similarities.
3) Use it in real world performances over 500 times.

And if you post a VIDEO of the move without doing AT LEAST this stuff, you're
just ASKING for people to think you're young and foolish.

That's what gives him less credibility-- he didn't do his homework!
And you know what's even worse? NO ONE HERE CALLED HIM ON IT!

See, when I did something like this, one of my mentors took me aside and said "Listen, don't ever do that again-- you're not ready to try that. There's things you have to learn first. I'll teach you, but we do this my way or not at all."

Hard words. But words that made me better and made me better much faster because I left my ego behind. It was more important to me to learn what the man had to teach me than it was to get the approval of other magic guys.

And just so everyone is clear-- I'm thrilled that my posts make it harder and harder for people like Magikrn to come back. From what I can tell, he's part of the problem: complacency; lowering standards by telling people something that sucks, doesn't; and the gutless refusal to speak the truth when someone needs to hear it.

Steven Youell
<awaiting your crushing reply>

I've always felt I found a good teacher when I'm close to tears by the end of a lesson!

You guys... ya'll need to cam down a little. The op says the move is something he believe to be fairly innovative. So what if it has a name, or almost a name, or it's something with a name not done quite right?

Why not offer some constructive criticism instead of jumping the guy for reinventing the wheel? Isn't the point of a palm to hide something? What the faro does it matter if it has a name or not? The main thing is: does it work?

Doesn't any of you adapt stuff slightly to make it work for you? Or do you skip a technique entirely because you can not do it exactly as written in some book even if it work with slight modifications?

So some of you have read a hundreds books, learned form the best etc. How about taking some time to learn to think for your self? Trust me, it's well worth it. If not it will be a lot of "Grandma's potroast" being made out there and that's just plain sad.

The saddest part though is that all through The Magic Café the Jante Law seem to prevail. It's a shame...

I'm not angry here, I'm trying to give some advice. DO YOUR HOMEWORK!

Steven Youell

I'm sorry Tina, now's not the time. BURN THE WITCH!

1) I don't think they are jumping on the original poster for reinventing the wheel. I think they are jumping on him for not doing his homework. Homework includes research. That applies to every form of study.
2) The point of palming anything, be it a card, coin, ball etc is to hide the object without suspicion. A quick read of Erdnase is all anyone will need to understand this.
3) Of course we all adapt things and modify things to suit ourselves. The difference is we don't put them on youtube without asking around first. Had the original poster sent a p.m. to some people here on the Café followed by a video he would have probably obtained the info he was looking for. Instead, he jumped the gun and placed the video on a forum where anyone can comment. Many of the people who have commented have never even read the works of Steranko, played with the Rooklyn top palm etc. Some of them can't even palm correctly! So all they can say is "great, keep up the good work" etc. All of this mutual admiration will feed his ego. His study habits will remain the same and magic has once again produced another mediocre sleight of hand practitioner. He can also choose a harder but more rewarding path.
4) Some of us have been lucky enough to learn from some of the best. But do you think this was some divine gift bestowed upon us? Did you ever think that many of the "best" which is relative anyway, probably would of had nothing to do with us if we didn't think for ourselves already? Steve and I had one mentor and friend in common. I can't speak for Steve but I've had my ego bruised way worse than this and I truly am better for it. Did the poster take a beating? Sure. Is he going to die because of it? No. Is he going to be better for it? I hope so. I'm sure he's very talented. He just stopped thinking too soon.

Best,

Dorian Rhodell

Dorian,

I get what you're saying. I guess what I don't get is the reactions to the fact that it's probably not his invention alone. It's, after all, just so many ways to hide a card in your hand so if you 'invent' something chances are that someone else has done something similar at one point in time. So I don't understand why not knowing who did it first *in it self* is diminishing. Granted, knowledge is good. The problem is of course that you can never know what you don't know.

That's why I interpret the OP as "Take a look at this... does it work?" and not "Hey! Look at what I, God's gift to magic, has come up with!" Then again, I tend to be naive and assume the best in people. It's a flaw

I don't want to get into the semantics but the title does say "New palming technique". There is little to misinterpret in the word "new". I think Steven is a little arrogant at times and he isn't one of my favorite people but I tend to agree with him on this and he does have a lot more knowledge than many including me.
There is nothing wrong with posting on youtube or whatever the problem for me lies in the title. It isn't new. When asked if it is (similar to) the lateral palm the OP responded that if he had to guess from the name then no. A better response would have been, "I don't know, let me check"

The original poster asked for comments on what he thought was an innovative and original method of palming. He posted several videos of the palm in action. He did NOT post a "tutorial" or exposure video (for which he should be COMMENDED, not condemned).
While it appears that he probably hasn't invented anything new, it also appears that most of us were not certain enough of the holdout being used to say so, so we limited ourselves to comments on his technique. Kato-san thought it might be a Tenkai palm, others, including myself, thought it looked like some sort of lateral palm. Without seeing the exposed view, I don't think anyone felt they were in a position to say how much innovation was actually involved.
Re-reading the thread, I don't agree that this was a "mutual admiration society" at work. There were numerous criticisms offered re: the hand position during the holdout, which is really all that was shown in the video, so it's all we had to work with.
Without seeing the entire move, no one here is qualified to say whether it's "innovative" or not.


Erdnase described the Diagonal Palm Shift in 1902. Since that time, there have been numerous "innovations" made to the basic move. Vernon offered a modification. Buckley's side steal is based on it. So is Carlyle's version. Vinny Marini's Squeeze Palm, invented independently, shares many characteristics with this group of moves. Jennings, Krenzel, and probably others have all (legitimately) put their stamp on versions of it.

By the way, I know the move we are talking about has nothing to do with the DPS, I am just using it as an example of a move that has had many legitimate modifications made to it, to illustrate a point. I re-read this after I posted it and realized I was risking confusing matters by this reference. Sorry!

My point is, without seeing the the mechanics of the move, it's difficult to say that it's one thing or another, or that in fact there is no "innovation".
Steven, you are probably right to say we have been too polite, but to say that this thread was just a bunch of back-patting praise is inaccurate and unfair.
Just my two cents worth.
Don

The links are dead. I think he took his ball and went home.

Cheers!

I do not know what a lateral palm is, I guess it's lennart green's but I've always refered at it as the snap deal palm. Yes, you could say my palm is a sort of lateral palm, In any case what I thought was original was not only the position in which the card ends but also how that card actually gets to that position. The whole move is what I think is original, breaking it down, I'm sure you can find many inspirations.
Mr. Youell, I would appreciate it if before you post about me not doing my homework you do yours.


8

That's rather surprising; lateral palm is pretty well covered in the modern literature. Look up "Steranko on Cards", and also look for information on the "Cloyes palm", although that may be more difficult to find. It's VERY doubtful that you've come up with a truly original palming position; any time you hold a card in the hand that way, it's pretty much blanketed as a lateral palm variant.

I could be wrong, but it looks to me like you're doing the pugh's pass/rooklyn top palm action into a lateral palm; hardly original.

To quote one of the lesser known greats; "combination does not warrant publication".



Come on...
Really?

Considering you "do not know what a lateral palm is", you're on pretty shaky ground to begin with, and you're trying to insult a guy who is obviously more knowledgeable than you are?

I think the little list of requirements (along with specific numbers) that Senor Youell posted is kind of ridiculous, but you do need to do some serious homework if you're going to use original and move in the same sentence.