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Michael Baker Eternal Order Near a river in the Midwest 11172 Posts |
A while back, I posted about problems with paint compatibility... well, it has happened again.
This time, I made the mistake of assuming that the new Krylon can design was the same paint as the original... WRONG! WRONG!! WRONG!!! Wal Mart had started stocking this new Krylon paint, by adding it in with the old cans still in stock. The new cans have a domed-shaped cap and a newer label design. The colors were identical, even though some new ones had been added (that is not unusual, as new colors have been continuously added). It was easy to assume nothing inside the can had changed. Of course, this is totally my fault for making the assumption. I should have read the fine print on the back of the label. Ok, here's the problem... The old Krylon paint specifies that you can recoat anytime. It works very well in that regard. It dries very fast, and it is even possible to spray one color, and depending on whether working with flat, satin or gloss paints, wait a certain length of time (less for flat, longer for gloss), and then mask to spray a different color on top of the first. Works great and I've been doing quite nicely at it. The new paint... NO WAY!! The label on the front of the can indicates that it dries in 10 minutes or less, which is even faster than the old can's claim of 12 minutes. Ok, so what's 2 minutes?? The new paints, even after several hours are still tacky. Masking for a second coat is out of the question. Ok, I decided to let a piece sit overnight before attempting the second color. The piece seemed dry enough this morning, so I went ahead with my plans. That was where everything went to Hell. The second color immediately wrinkled and lifted. WHAT THE...??? Knowing what the likely problem was (I've seen this paint reaction before), I started to read the back of the can. Now, all along, I've been assuming that this was just a new can design... WRONG!!! It says, "Dries to touch in 10 minutes, handle after 1 hour". I still don't buy that. But then it goes on to say, "Recoat within one hour or after 24 hours". That is a major departure from the old can's paint!!! Ok... while it is possible to spray multiple coats of the same color (as long as you hit inside that one hour window), it terribly bogs down the production efficiency by having to wait to spray a second color. It is impossible to mask in less than one hour, and I'm not yet convinced that waiting 24 hours to do so is waiting long enough. All I know at this point is that I have a screwed up prop sitting here, waiting to be taken back to square one in the paint department. Sorry to rant, but I thought you guys might want to know before you have the same problem.
~michael baker
The Magic Company |
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jay leslie V.I.P. Southern California 9498 Posts |
I feel your pain. Try a different brand.
Here is my 2 cent's worth: when the man behind the counter tells you that water based paint is every bit as good as oil, call him a liar. Even in the industrials, there is a lot of issues because of all the epa rules.
Jay Leslie
www.TheHouseOfEnchantment.com |
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Regan Inner circle U.S.A. 5726 Posts |
Sorry to hear about your problems Michael. Thanks for the heads-up!
Regan
Mister Mystery
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Chance Wolf Inner circle 2425 Posts |
Michael,
Switch to all Lacquer paints and most if not all your problems will disappear. Spray Can Lacquer is available if you choose not to use a spray gun. As you know, the dry time is near immediate and re-coat wait time is minimal not to mention it is a far superior paint to any oil base enamel. Just my opinion but I hope it helps, Chance
Creator of Wacky Wolf Productions & Fine Collectibles
A DECADE of building Magic and we're just getting started! http://www.wolfsmagic.com |
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Michael Baker Eternal Order Near a river in the Midwest 11172 Posts |
Hi Chance,
Thanks for popping in here. Your thoughts are always welcome. Do you have a brand of spray can that you would recommend? I use so many different colors (sometimes on the same prop) that setting up a compresser powered spray station for that many colors would be very impractical for me. I just don't have the room. The old style Krylon paints are lacquer. I discovered that some time back when I made the mistake of layering it with enamel.(I mistakenly thought Krylon was enamel). The company verified otherwise. I stopped using the other brand enamel paints completely, and things were rocking until these stupid new Krylon cans came out. I have since noticed that the Krylon Fusion paints have a working window of inside 24 hours, or after 7 days. So, now we have a whole new potential screw up waiting for someone to find it. Bummer for them. As an aside, even Krylon paints of the same label have differences in drying time which may or may not be used to advantage. Example: If you put down a base coat of a gloss, and overspray that with flat black, it gives a crackle finish. Good if you're looking for it, but bad if not. Clear gloss over the top brings the shine up on the whole job. ~michael
~michael baker
The Magic Company |
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Dustin Baker Inner circle California 1006 Posts |
Michael,
My dad has run a paint factory for the past 30 years. He only taught me one thing about paint. "Find the cheapest crap you can get - that's the stuff that works the best." Note: He doesn't consider water-based paints to be "real paint" - so they are excluded from the statement. I buy cans of "Color-fast" at Home Depot for 98cents each. It dries in 20minutes, sticks to anything (tested on metal, plastic, paper, cardboard, etc), and dries very evenly. I don't know if that helps, but it's what I had.
Think inside the box. . . it's less crowded.
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Michael Baker Eternal Order Near a river in the Midwest 11172 Posts |
Thank you, Dustin.
~michael baker
The Magic Company |
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Ron Reid Inner circle Phoenix, Arizona 2732 Posts |
Hi Michael:
I'm so glad to see this post, though I feel your pain...really. I've shared with you before that I've been using the Krylon paints for some time. I too confirmed with them that their standard indoor/outdoor paints are lacquer. I picked up some paint at Walmart - the paint with the new can and the nice, new nozel. I've always like the fine spray that the Fusion cans give, so I was excited to see a similar nozel on their lacquer paints. I went home and tried it. It worked nicely, and even gave a slightly smoother finish, so I was very happy. A couple days later, I put on the waterslide decal, and things were looking good. A few more days in Phoenix weather (95 degrees) and I'm ready for the high-gloss clear lacquer finish. I put it on like normal, and all looks great. A few hours later, I come back to check and see lifting all over! So, everything is ruined. I want to call Krylon to find out if the new paint is still lacquer, or what. The can tells nothing and their website tells nothing, at least to me. I'm pretty sure that the Rustoleum products sold in Home Depot, Lowes, and other places are all enamel. I've tried them all, and they always lift when I put on the final, high gloss clear lacquer finish, but I've NEVER had a problem with Krylon until now. Now that I read your original post about the recoating times, I'll bet the new paints are enamel, which explains a lot. I'm going to have to call them tomorrow. Ron |
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Michael Baker Eternal Order Near a river in the Midwest 11172 Posts |
Ron,
Jeez... that sucks! Maybe we should file a class action lawsuit against Krylon for lost income due to screwed up projects and delayed production. I'd rather pay twice the price for half the hassle. Let me know what you find out. I'll be on the road for about a week, but I'll try to check back at some point. ~michael
~michael baker
The Magic Company |
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Ron Reid Inner circle Phoenix, Arizona 2732 Posts |
I talked with a Krylon rep today...Krylon paints are no longer lacquer paints! The new formula is oil based, but not enamel. The rep said it is VT Alca-something to comply with environmental laws.
Quite disappointing, but it does solve the mystery. Ron |
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George Ledo Magic Café Columnist SF Bay Area 3042 Posts |
Michael, that really sucks. I can accept Krylon having to change the formula to comply with environmental laws and all that, but it just goes to prove once more that every time something works, someone has to go and fix it.
But just out of curiosity, have any of you tried a urethane top coat instead of lacquer? I use the stuff (Minwax) occassionally on stage props, and it seems to hold up really well. It also comes in matte, semigloss, and gloss.
That's our departed buddy Burt, aka The Great Burtini, doing his famous Cups and Mice routine
www.georgefledo.net Latest column: "Sorry about the photos in my posts here" |
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jay leslie V.I.P. Southern California 9498 Posts |
Usually:
Water based can be top coated with oil or enamel but test first. Oil can cover lacquer Enamel can cover lacquer lacquer can not cover oil or enamel, usually. Incidentally, enamel technically only refers to the finish and not the ingredients, So always test before putting on a full coat. Even with the new water based paints some take enamel as a topcoat and some don't. Then there is the issue of tints and suspensions. The suspension is made of tiny particles that are the color where the tint method uses a standard base and colored tints are added to create the final color. But I could be wrong
Jay Leslie
www.TheHouseOfEnchantment.com |
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Zazz Veteran user California 315 Posts |
Thanks for the great advice. I'm using Rustoleum enamel and am finding the crackling affect on the final coats of clear gloss. After drying, sanding, priming and repainting I have decided to be patient and let more drying time before recoating. A painter friend told me the crackling can be caused by not deglossing between coats if the paint is dry or if the paint is still soft and not left alone for the recommended drying time.
Jay, your Allakazam Hats look great. Very nice job. Dan |
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jay leslie V.I.P. Southern California 9498 Posts |
Thanks but that's just the picture you see, The actual hats are slowly becoming a finished project. (some are done) However Mr Wilson said they look beautiful and that's quite a complement. They have slight variations because a lot of the work is hand done but he said they look better then the original.
Incidentally, the reason I have a fairly good grasp of what you can do with paints is because I;ve encountered aery type of problem possible AND with the laws changing and making formulas worse.... I'm sure that I'll be experiencing even more problems in the future, Also if you're using spray cans A, I make sure they are warm by putting them under a light and B hold them 10 to 14 inches away because the solvent can come out separately (in minute amounts) and cause the surface to spread but if you hold the can further away you stand a better chance of the paint mixing before it hits the ground zero.
Jay Leslie
www.TheHouseOfEnchantment.com |
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Ron Reid Inner circle Phoenix, Arizona 2732 Posts |
That's real good advice, Jay. Thanks!
Maybe you can answer this question: Why is it with Painters Touch brand of spray paint (Home Depot - enamel), I get lifting when I spray on 3 or 4 light coats? Sometimes, on the last coat, when I'm making that "wet, wet look", it happens. Is it the solvents making it happen? Ron |
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jay leslie V.I.P. Southern California 9498 Posts |
Could be... but you need to spray according to the directions including reapplication time. The best system is to wait till it's dry and then a sanding sponge or scotch brite pads and then apply the next coat.
Lacquer rules
Jay Leslie
www.TheHouseOfEnchantment.com |
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Chezaday Inner circle Naperville, IL 1673 Posts |
This has been driving me nuts. I'm in the middle of repainting one of my illusions and sure enough the paint is cracking in different areas. I too found out the hard way that Krylon changed their formula. No warning label .. No nothing! I've wasted a week now stripping my prop down to bare wood as a last resort.
Tonight I searched for my precious Krylon Semi-Flat Black to finish this long over due project. I can't tell you how disappointed I am with Shermin Williams. I've been a loyal Krylon user for over 15 years. I had this same problem with Rustoleum years ago and swore I would never use their products again. Anyone have any other brands that would be a suitable substitute?? Wet sanding is part of my finishing process and I just can't keep track of drying times and such. This is really messing things up for me. I though I was going nuts .. at least I'm not the only one. Steve P.S. When I called the Krylon Hotline they did mention the old formula would be available at industrial supply companies like Grainger. Of course this will cost twice as much but, what can we do?? |
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Ron Reid Inner circle Phoenix, Arizona 2732 Posts |
Hi Steve:
I've noticed that Ace Hardwares seem to have quite a bit of the old stock, so that might be an option. Yes, that Krylon semi-flat black is the best! However, I've noticed that Painter's Touch flat black from Home Depot will give almost exactly the same sheen. I've not had any problems with that like I've had with their glossy paints. Ron |
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Michael Baker Eternal Order Near a river in the Midwest 11172 Posts |
I was at Ace yesterday and their stock is changing over quickly. It depends on where you look. A few weeks ago, I was at a Wal Mart in Pekin, IL (outside Peoria) and they had tons of the good stuff. Unfortunately, I was travelling through and did not have any good place to store all the paint I wished I could buy. I wasn't about to leave it in a hot car every day for a week.
Since being home, I have been squirreling away random cans of the stuff, as I find it, but every time I see a can of the new stuff on a shelf, I want to scream.
~michael baker
The Magic Company |
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Chezaday Inner circle Naperville, IL 1673 Posts |
I'm clearing out the local Wal-Mart's in my area. Of course they always had the best price on Krylon at $2.98. I've seen the very same can go for $6.99 at Joanne Fabrics if you can believe that.
The paint does not last forever and eventually I will have to find another brand. Thanks for the tip Ron .. I'll check out Painters Touch. Steve |
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