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JoeJoe
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Myrtle Beach
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I just found out about this, scroll down to Section 19-173, I believe it is now law:

http://www.cityofmyrtlebeach.com/eventfinal.html



I don't know how they expect people to earn the $50 fee when hat lines are not allowed ... but that's government for ya.

-JoeJoe
Amazing JoeJoe on YouTube[url=https://www.youtube.com/user/AmazingJoeJoe]
gaddy
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Agent of Chaos
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When you think of the many, many hours of legal fees that must have gone into that piece of municipal ordinance, probably on the order of tens of thousands of dollars worth, just to make it legally impossible for you to make a 100$ hat... It's enough to make you want to just give up... I'm sure that was the whole point.

I've often wanted to go back to Myrtle Beach, where my family would often vacation when I was a youth, but now, not so much...
*due to The Magic Cafe's editorial policies, words on this site attributed to me cannot necessarily be held to be my own.*
tboehnlein
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ohio
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TRy this as a hat line Folks as I lay ma hat before YOU please let me repeat to you a portion of the Myrtle Beach Muncipal code for you to consider for it's own absurdity & levity"In any manner of performance, a performer may not by word, conduct or signage solicit money before, during or after the performance as such a request would constitute an unlawful solicitation. Provided however, a performer may accept an unsolicited donation in a plain receptacle, such as an open musical instrument case, box or hat(as you are juggling your hat). The display of a receptacle shall not be considered solicitation."
mrunge
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Yep...your government at work.

I wonder if one can continue to busk given the code talks about not SOLICITING money and taking, literally, (see below) the definition of that word. Since one sets up a pitch and stands there and people come to them, one might have a case. Just don't (1) "approach", (2)"urge strongly", (3) "lure especially into evil", (4)"try to obtain...by urgent request."

It's like splitting hairs and the parsing of words. Remember, we had a recent President once say "It depends on what the meaning of the word IS, IS."

Maybe a busker can do the same!

Mark. Smile

Myrtle Beach, SC - Special Events Ordinance
Sec. 19-173. Time, Place and Manner Permitted Performances.
Item 9...
"In any manner of performance, a performer may not by word, conduct or signage solicit money before, during or after the performance as such a request would constitute an unlawful solicitation. Provided however, a performer may accept an unsolicited donation in a plain receptacle, such as an open musical instrument case, box or hat. The display of a receptacle shall not be considered solicitation."

From the Merriam-Webster online dictionary...
SOLICITING
1 a: to make petition to : entreat b: to approach with a request or plea <solicited Congress for funding>
2: to urge (as one's cause) strongly
3 a: to entice or lure especially into evil b: to proposition (someone) especially as or in the character of a prostitute
4: to try to obtain by usually urgent requests or pleas <solicited donations>
Tony Iacoviello
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Eternal Order
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What do they mean by "Monday - Thursday 7:00 am to 12:00 pm. midnight"?
12:00 PM is noon.

It reads like a couple of people who don't know what they are doing put pen to paper.
Kozmo
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V.I.P.
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Be creative...talk about how you cnt ask for money like other street performers in other towns...that the constitution isn't vable in myrtle beach....you can get you hat line in by following the law and make it funny...they will give...talk about how entertainers in other areas ask for tips but you cant because its the law....you will get more...not that I know anything

kozmo
TheAmbitiousCard
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Northern California
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Get a bike horn and every time you should be saying a taboo word you can honk the horn and mouth the word. that would be funny if you did it well. I was planning on something similar for my stand-up act but not about money. something very different but hopefully just as funny.
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Chance
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I've lost count by now of how many times I've tried warning you guys about this type of harrassment.

NONE OF THIS STUFF IS EVEN REMOTELY LEGAL AND/OR CONSTITUTIONAL.

The city that enacts this type of law is pandering to the elite: the real estate developers that own land near where we need to work; shop owners; the rich upper class; the one's that party with the Mayor; the one's that can afford to donate 25-Grand at election time.

THEY KNOW WHAT THEY DO IS WRONG ON EVERY LEVEL. YOU'LL WIN NO POINTS BY TRYING TO EDUCATE THEM. THE SOONER YOU REALIZE THEY ARE LAUGHING AT YOU BEHIND YOR BACK, THE SOONER YOU CAN BEGIN THE SMACK DOWN.

You're the little guy. You have no community. You belong to no workers union. You don't have a high powered attorney, and even if you do manage to save up the 10-Grand needed to hire one, good luck finding one that will go against his local small town colleagues -- the same people he golfs with every weekend, your Mayor included.

There are things we CAN do. But you must first and foremost recognize what I have just said (for the umpteenth time): your local options are gone before you even begin. REAL local solutions are not within your reach, because there are none. Attacking the problem on the local level will only become a monumental waste of time, and your adversaries will be only too willing to take if from you as you helplessly spin your wheels and waste your time and money fighting city hall by THEIR RULES.

Study the main cases:
CASE Goldstein v Nantucket
CASE Davenport v Alexandria
CASE Friedrich v Chicago
CASE Perry & Newman v. LAPD

Spend a week reading everything here: http://www.communityartsadvocates.org/

Learn what a TRO is and how to write one.

Learn what Federal District you live in, and where your nearest Federal Court House is.

Go there are learn how to use the public law library. Look up these cases in person, and learn how to relate to the legal staff in their own language.

LEARN TO TALK LIKE AN INSIDER. LEARN THE REAL RULES. STOP BEING A SHEEP AND BECOME A WOLF.
BAH1313
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Ohio
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Great Advice Chance!
I am truly blessed to have a job where people are laughing all the time and everyone believes in magic....Come to think of it, I'm blessed to even have a job.
gallagher
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Great Post Chance, you nailed that one on the head. Too bad Busking has to be so much work!! But you´re right on.
One thing I like to do, as a little `hit´ back: is to talk bad about the town, whenever I´m being giving press coverage,... an interview or something. Other towns love printing `how´ and `why´ their town is better then another,... especially if it´s a nearby town.
keep on punching,
gallagher
JoeJoe
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Myrtle Beach
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Quote:
On 2008-05-07 14:11, gaddy wrote:
When you think of the many, many hours of legal fees that must have gone into that piece of municipal ordinance, probably on the order of tens of thousands of dollars worth, just to make it legally impossible for you to make a 100$ hat... It's enough to make you want to just give up... I'm sure that was the whole point.


Since the Pavilion Amusement Park closed two years ago, the downtown area is not doing so well. The redevelopment committee wanted to make it easier to hold special events downtown ... they got new laws to make it easier to hold concerts, parades, fireworks, and street performers. I suspect any performers that actually end up working downtown will be paid by the redevelopment committee. I can't imagine anyone with any real chops actually working this pitch (Pyler Park).

Chance hit the nail on the head when he pointed out that this law is pandering to the elite - that is exactly what the redevelopment committee is, business and hotel owners. I don't think much thought actually went into this law, it looks to me like they just cut&pasted it from another City's code and just changed the times ... which would explain the discrepancies with dumb things like "12pm midnight".



Quote:
On 2008-05-08 11:55, Chance wrote:
Learn what Federal District you live in, and where your nearest Federal Court House is.


That would be the 4th District, the closest office being in Florance ... there is a $350 filing fee; you would be going up against people that have law degrees and spend a lot of time in the courtroom ... I imagine there is a pretty steep learning curve. And if you lose, you could be required to pay the City's legal fees - which could be thousands of dollars. Another $450 fee if you wish to appeal, which you would probably need to do - I can't imagine winning this anywhere in South Carolina, you would need to take it to Washington.

The biggest reason I wouldn't want to do this is because it could take years to actually get the case settled, and I would prefer to be working on my magic. But if anyone out there is still interested, the Court's website is at:

http://www.scd.uscourts.gov/



These laws and permits and licenses are really not the problem - the problem is the Southern mentality towards people in general. The politicians that pass these laws take no offense at a Church passing a collection plate, nor to they have a problem with sending out letters asking their constituents for campaign contributions. But for some reason, they take great offense when a regular everyday citizen makes a "solicitation". In this area, it is illegal to put a "for sale" sign on a car and park it where it can be seen from a roadway.

When you drive down I95 and you see "South of the Border", they mean it - you are not in America any longer! My mom was told by a Myrtle Beach police officer that the flag flying outside her store was in violation of a City Ordnance and if she didn't take it down she would be fined $50 a day - yes, that's right ... in this area it is illegal to fly an AMERICAN FLAG, even at a time when President Bush was asking residents to fly the flag in memory of 9/11.

And people have to wonder why I don't like living here. If you don't live here, you don't understand the mentality ... and if you do live here, you don't understand the problem with it unless you have lived elsewhere. It is a very repressed place to be.



-JoeJoe
Amazing JoeJoe on YouTube[url=https://www.youtube.com/user/AmazingJoeJoe]
Chance
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Or you could look at it from the other side, and say that if you had started fighting back 5 years ago instead of simply venting your frustrations to us, your fight would have already been won and your streets safe and open.
JoeJoe
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I've been fighting both Myrtle Beach and North Myrtle Beach for 15 years now ... the first day I was in town, I invaded the City Attorneys office and protested - nearly got myself arrested. I've written every council member and been completely ignored by every one of them. I've wrote letters to the editors of the newspaper. I've argued with at least 4 cops. I have begged the ACLU to do something about this years ago. And while I don't talk about it, I have even bucked the system and performed small shows downtown despite the laws against it. I first met Jim Lee (my mentor) downtown when he looked outside his magic shop and wondered what that crowd of people were doing at the end of the street (watching me).

Nobody has been fighting more for street performing in Myrtle Beach than I have, NOBODY. I'm not frustrated, I have a private pitch where I am not bound by the new laws so they really don't effect me anyway. I was merely bringing this new information to the attention of Café members so interested people would know the City is opening up to buskers.

I personally have high hopes that this is a step in the right direction, and the performers that begin working the area will push for more change. As I said, the laws are not the problem - the problem is the fear these Southern politicians have that street performers are just vagrants trying to avoid working a job by begging for money in the streets. In time, they will come around. The process has already begun - last year, it was completely illegal to solicit a tip. This summer, you can at least throw down a hat. I actually see it as the opposite of frustrated, I am happy to see progress.

-JoeJoe
Amazing JoeJoe on YouTube[url=https://www.youtube.com/user/AmazingJoeJoe]
Chance
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JJ, take your last letter and compare it to my first.

All those things you just said you spent the past 15 years doing -- "I've been fighting both Myrtle Beach and North Myrtle Beach for 15 years now ... the first day I was in town, I invaded the City Attorneys office and protested - nearly got myself arrested. I've written every council member and been completely ignored by every one of them. I've wrote letters to the editors of the newspaper. I've argued with at least 4 cops. I have begged the ACLU to do something about this years ago" -- is EXACTLY what I was warning against doing.

This is exactly the type of action/behavior that the local bigwigs want to see coming from us. When we act out like this they know they have nothing to fear. It's amateurish and uneducated, and it bears absolutely no weight in law. It's like an unarmed man on a bicycle trying to take on a fully armored tank. The guys inside just sit back and have a good laugh at our expense.

On the other hand, a month in a law library boning up on the right cases and laws, 2 days drafting a TRO, and a FREE submission to the federal court who will also appoint you a free federally approved attorney, and I promise you -- NOW you're a threat. NOW they will notice you.
JoeJoe
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I don't think your methods are going to yield any better results than my methods. The only difference is, my methods are a lot cheaper and carry less risk. You might be able to get the filing fee waived, but the courts are under absolutely no obligation to provide you an attorney in a civil matter - to the best of my knowledge they only do that in criminal cases, which means you would need to be arrested first. I've never heard of a court appointed attorney in a civil case. And even so, I wouldn't want an attorney that was appointed by the court - I would want an attorney that believed in my cause.

And it still doesn't guarantee that you will win, and losing means you have to pay the City's court costs and attorney fees ... and like you already said, they know how to spin your wheels and waste your time and money - they can spend as much money as they want researching this case, and if they lose ... oh well, it's not their money anyway. But if you lose, you have to pay it ... however much they decided to spend fighting you.

My bigger concern is that it could end up doing more harm than good ... cases brought before the Supreme Court are usually chosen with the greatest of care, you only want the best possible case with the best witnesses and the best evidence. You never know which way a Court is going to rule ... it only takes one idiot that thinks he has the right to juggle flaming knives blindfolded on a 5 foot wide sidewalk while riding a unicycle to **** it up for everyone else.



I think the biggest thing I've done is to continue street performing ... if the people lead, the leaders will follow. Through my example, Myrtle Beach has realized that street performers bring in tourists and now they want us to perform downtown also. I haven't been spinning my wheels, not by a long shot.

Look at it like this Chance ... the City Attorney is going to have more knowledge and skills of law than I could ever learn. I feel suing someone that hires a full time attorney to represent them is just a foolish thing to do. It'd be like taking a knife to a gunfight, he would know when to object to my arguments (but I wouldn't know when to object to his). He would know how to get keep my evidence from getting before a jury (but I wouldn't know how to block his). There would be a thousand "little things" he has learned from experience, things the law books can't teach me. I'd still be playing their game by their rules with their deck at their house, the only difference would be that that I've now put money in the pot to play.

Here's the best solution: instead of us learning law, perhaps we should teach magic to a lawyer. Then maybe we could talk him into suing the City.



-JoeJoe
Amazing JoeJoe on YouTube[url=https://www.youtube.com/user/AmazingJoeJoe]
Chance
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Have you read any of the cases I mentioned earlier?

Have you spent real time (at least 3 hours for example) at the website I listed?

Do you know what a TRO is? Ever read one? Ever written one?

Have you ever spoken directly with the City Attorney about this situation?

How about the State Attorney General?

Your Mayor?

Your Governor?

Have you ever paid to sit down for an hour or 2 with a private attorney experienced in Civil Rights law?

Have you spent any serious time speaking with the staffers of your regional Federal Coourt House, especially those in the law library?

Have you spent any time reading up at the law library of your local university?

Ever googled "street performer" + "license/permit/arrest/regulations", etc., and then spent the next week studying the results?

Talk about a knife at a gun fight. These are the most basic starting points. There are none more basic. I'll be happy to continue this discussion when you can add your own EDUCATED opinion.
JoeJoe
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Myrtle Beach
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Chance, I've done nearly everything on your list ... if you want to write a TRO against Myrtle Beach, then by all means do so. I seriously doubt a judge is going to sign it unless you file suit, and only then to keep you from being arrested until your day in court. That is why is is called TEMPORARY restraining order - it's not a permanent fix.

And if you Google street performing laws you may eventually find my website listed - I don't know the exact search phrase, but I have seen it pop up in my own searches on the subject. This page in particular:

http://joejoeonline.com/magicians_rights_disappear.htm



Chill out dude, I'm not the enemy. I am a magician Chance, I have no desire to learn law. If you want to sue Myrtle Beach, then nobody is stopping you ... but I don't intend to do so. It would be great to have JoeJoe vs. Myrtle Beach on the Supreme Court docket, but at what expense? I'd prefer to be known as the guy that opens street performing to Myrtle Beach, not to lose the case and become the man that shut down street performing nationwide.

There is more than one way to change a law, and considering I was once a lobbyist to the Maryland General Assembly I prefer to work with methods I am familiar with. Which is why I have been in contact with the City Clerk, and I have an audience with the Council on Tuesday to discuss this topic with them. Wish me luck, and if anyone has anything in particular about the law you feel I should bring up don't hesitate to let me know now. I'm going to be spending the next few days collecting relevant data and cases and information for them.

-JoeJoe
Amazing JoeJoe on YouTube[url=https://www.youtube.com/user/AmazingJoeJoe]
Chance
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I'm perfectly chill. There's absolutely no need to insert personal comments into an otherwise intellectual debate.

Speaking of which, this one sentence speaks volumes:

"I'd prefer to be known as the guy that opens street performing to Myrtle Beach, not to lose the case and become the man that shut down street performing nationwide."

The fact that you even believe it could happen (a nationwide shut down) tells me that you've really never studied the issue. If you had, if you had really studied the cases I list, you would know that the federal courts are actually quite supportive of busking. They would be, since these judges have daily exposure to civil rights issues, issues that small local court judges never see. And when they do, they are quick to label it by some minor criminal statute, like blocking a right-of-way, etc.

Whatever. You don't get it. And I'm too busy to care any more.

Good luck at your meeting. But I really wish you were going in properly armed, for all our sakes.
ed rhodes
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Quote:
On 2008-05-08 00:12, Frank Starsini wrote:
Get a bike horn and every time you should be saying a taboo word you can honk the horn and mouth the word. that would be funny if you did it well. I was planning on something similar for my stand-up act but not about money. something very different but hopefully just as funny.


Lenny Bruce; "If you weren't offended, you're all full of _blah_ and I hope you never get your _blah blah_ straight!"
"There's no time to lose," I heard her say.
"Catch your dreams before they slip away."
"Dying all the time, lose your dreams and you could lose your mind.
Ain't life unkind?"
JoeJoe
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Myrtle Beach
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Tomorrow is the big day, here is the press release:

http://joejoeonline.com/myrtle_beach_bans_magic_tricks.htm



-JoeJoe
Amazing JoeJoe on YouTube[url=https://www.youtube.com/user/AmazingJoeJoe]
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