I guess you´ve heard:"There are no bad effects, only bad presentations."

What´s your opinions?

Are there bad effects, that´s too bad to perform, regardless of presentation?

I'd say that it is not a trick for you to do. If, like me, you've been playing this game since shortly after once upon a time. You have a drawer full of stuff that other people do well.
Good performance can compensate for natural weaknessses. It probably would help if before you thought of performing, you analyzed every thing that could go wrong. If possible looking at it from the audiences view. Remembering they are for the most part smarter than I am. (If after that there are too many flaws, put the trick in the drawer
from
Ford

"I used the right words and the right presentation, but it failed anyway."

That sounds like an immense contadiction.

I'm in agreement with Ford.

What I like to do to answer this question is ask myself, "Is there someone, somewhere, for whom this trick would work?" ALWAYS the answer has been yes.

Starting from there...

What do they do that would work with this trick?

Would that work for me? (Very often NO)

At some point one learns to apply this questioning before purchasing and thus greatly increases the success rate with their purchases.

Ford is right, we should analyze every thing that could go wrong. When I do that in this particular trick I come to the conclusion that it can go wrong in a lot of ways.
In fact it´s so likely it will go wrong that the best thing to do is not doing this trick. And everything is not that easy to think about when you are analyzing.
If you for example told me:"Don´t open your eyes until I say so!" you might fail miserably, because I have a shortcoming that you can´t see when you watch me.

Tom, you said it seemed to be an immense contradiction. Not necessarily, because everyone does not do what you tell them, because they can misunderstand you for example.

Mikael

There are, most definitely, bad tricks. In MOST (not all) of these cases, a SUPERB performer can turn them into mediocre tricks (his presentation/story may still be very entertaining, but it won't be particularly magical). If you don't believe me, just look at some of the drivel being invented and released by people who have clearly never performed the stuff in the real world (they've just thought it up and assume it SHOULD work) and by people who've been in magic for a year or so and never bothered to read a book or learn the basic principles and methods of magic, much less presentation, misdirection, staging, routining, conviction, etc.

Yes, Virginia, there are bad tricks. And there are bad magicians. And there are bad audiences. The problem is, the bad magicians can't face the fact that they're bad, so they blame the trick or the audience (which are significantly less often at fault)!

"Yes, Virginia, there are bad tricks."

Scott, did you think you were answering someone else, or does Virginia have a meaning that only americans understand?



"the bad magicians can't face the fact that they're bad, so they blame the trick or the audience"

Tell me one professional magician who performs the card trick I described, and performs it regularly in front of an audience. None of the professionals I know uses it. I was afraid people would draw the wrong conclusion and miss my question. I shouldn´t have given an example of a bad trick. I´ll rephrase my initial post:

Are there bad tricks, that´s too bad to perform, regardless of presentation?

Mikael

Mikael--

My comments were not directed at you. The Virginia line comes from a very famous newspaper article an editor wrote to a little girl, "Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Clause."

I never said you were bad. I totally disagree that there are no bad tricks. That was my whole point--there ARE bad tricks! I was merely following that up by saying thatsometimes (often) magicians (note that I said "magicians" and not "Mikael") use a perfectly good trick with little or no practice or presentation and then blame the trick when it doesn't go over.

Go back and read the first paragraph of my last post again. I think I made it quite clear that I feel there are tricks that even the finest performers can only make mediocre at best.

Here's my view. Think of a little 'golden triangle' - you (the performer), your kind of audiences, and your material.

All that matters is that each point on the triangle fits with the other two. If that's the case, then the material is just fine and dandy, and no-one has any right to say otherwise. If that's NOT the case, then the material or the performer needs to be modified.

It's pointless saying such-and-such is a 'bad' trick. If it works for performer X, and his kind of audiences, and everyone's getting what they want out of it, then the trick is just fine. Ditto, it's pointless saying such-and-such is a 'great' trick. If it doesn't fit me and the kind of people I work for, then it's effectively useless.

Each magical and mentalistical experience should be mutually satisfying - the performer pleased with the performance and the response, and the audience pleased to have been entertained, taken out of themselves into the 'moment of wonder', maybe some fun and humour, and given food for thought all at at the same time.

I think I misunderstood you totally Scott! Now I understand, sorry!

Mikael

You are forgiven, my son! Go in peace!

Mikael,

If I have been verbally misunderstood as a performer, then I have used the wrong words.

There in lies the contradiction. Every time something goes wrong, there is a way to fix it.

In fact, something may feel perfect for years but all of a sudden it goes astray and makes me refine it to be even that much better.

Now as to Scott's claim....

If it just plain doesn't work , ie the method can not work, that goes in my never was magic file. A personal semantics quirk.

Well the method can be nice but the effect boring to tears... The audience doesn't care much about the practicability of the method, or about your ability to do it again from another angle while naked in a pool...

As Scott says, there are indeed boring effects. The main problem IMO for magicians or mentalists is to take an objective look at what they do, from a spectator's viewpoint... It seems obvious, but there are so many poor effects that are so successfully commercialized that I still wonder...

By the way Scott, I don't want to sound rude but... we can see the card in your sleeve

I dont believe that there are truly bad tricks, There are several I personally would not do, for various reasons.
1. there are to many tricks on the market to possibly master.

2. My personality might not be right for the effect in order to sell it.

3. some of the motions might not fit my natural timing and movement style.

These are just a couple of the reasons, but there are several more just as there would be for anyone else.
Pour yourself into magic books and videos. See as much as you can; the more you see the more you start to find what fits you.

If you find a trick set next to your bed so it is the last thing you see before you sleep and the first thing you see when you wake up, eventually you will find the right amswer as to how to present the effect.

just my 2 cents.

Having bought dealer items in the past, it has been my experience that there are truly awful effects out there. There are also significantly lousy effects in print.

This said, there are genial performers who can get a lout of mileage out of lousy effects - if a comedy approach is taken. But then, again, anything goes in comedy, if you are funny.

You may come across as a clown or a comedian - as some performers do unwittingly.

Ha ha, there are NO bad magical effects. But there ARE bad tricks out there. Often magicians who can't be bothered to put the time in blame the tricks, a bad workman always blames his tools, but it is also a case of finding the tricks that are right for you.

Some dealer items are right for no-one. Some are badly manufactured to such a degree they don't work as they should. Some are simply bad ideas thrown together by unscrupulous dealers (there are one or two about)simply for the purpose of selling rather than doing.

Read through the Good Bad and Garbage thread Reed, or study any large magic catalogue.

Paul Hallas

Honestly working at a magic shop I have seen some horrendous effects. But surely there is always something in the rough for the tricks put out on the market. I will go check out the good the bad and the ugly and see whet I find. I would be willing to bet I will see a bad item that everyone hated and I will get it and play with it. Just to see if my thought is wrong on this. I say this because I have seen awful tricks that would come into the shop, and I had to sell them so I would have to tweak it a lot and show the people when they bought it what I did so they could buy it. I will get back with you on this. I am a firm believer in the fact that it is not the tools or the brushes it’s the artist behind it. Thank you for a new challenge


Posted: Mar 12, 2002 9:35pm
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OK Paul,
you got me Peter Marvy’s card through window is definitely not a matter of a magician or how good he is. I stand corrected. But I wonder if you could fix the gimmick and apply it to something else all together. I would have been upset if I would have had to sell that trick, or buy it sight unseen. I sometimes open my mouth and insert my foot, I guess because its a good fit.

Personally, I also found Lee Earle's "Clone Folio" to be unworkable.

I once saw a magician do a living/dead test at a local magic get-together using someone who the spectator knew who passed on. Very tasteless. I stay away from stuff like that.

Well that is a L&D test is it not?

J ack

Predicting the losing numbers in a lottery draw would be a bad trick.

- entity