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Cain Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 1550 Posts |
Specifically tricks where a spectator is supposed to cut off a packet of cards, count them, the number in the packet becomes their number, and then they remember the card at that number as you show cards one at a time. This type of handling almost always sucks, in my view. It's just such an unbelievably indirect, convoluted way of selecting a card, and yet I see it over and over again. Who's with me?
A rare exception that comes to mind is John Bannon's "Timely Departure." The effect is strong, the clock force procedure is well-motivate in the context of the routine.
Ellusionst discussing the Arcane Playing cards: "Michaelangelo took four years to create the Sistine Chapel masterpiece... these took five."
Calvin from Calvin and Hobbes: "You know Einstein got bad grades as a kid? Well, mine are even worse!" |
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Austin113 New user New Jersey 67 Posts |
I think Harris's "Overkill" is a strong exception as well. The selection is decent, but the effect itself works wonders.
The method is not the secret.
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Larry Barnowsky Inner circle Cooperstown, NY where bats are made from 4770 Posts |
Sorry, I disagree with that as a rule. It can be a very sneaky way of getting information about a card that the spectator "thought of". Marlo's Automatic Placement does just that in Revol. Card Technique. You can see it used in Jenning's "Impossible", a few Harry Lorayne effects, and in an effect of mine (in my new book) called "Natural Selection". In a way it is a bit refreshing to have a card selected in that way rather than someone grabbing a card out of the deck. Compare that method of selection to the ways mentalists "allow" the spectator to pick a card or a number in the most convoluted fashion.
Larry |
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vinsmagic Eternal Order sleeping with the fishes... 10957 Posts |
How about you name any no in the Deck from 1 to 52 after two cards are selected and lost in the pack.
the performer counts to that no ant it is the chosen card?? Then the performer says name another no picks up a block of cards and it is exactly that no and the secon chosen xcard is found at this new no. no gimmcks not meme deck or any set up " rRepeat card at any no " |
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Vlad_77 Inner circle The Netherlands 5829 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-05-17 17:53, vinsmagic wrote: Vinny, I seem to remember performing a similar effect by Gene Castillon called Riding the Wave. It appeared in Kabbala. Best paisan, Vlad |
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Harry Lorayne 1926 - 2023 New York City 8558 Posts |
You'll find some tremendous, killer, effects in my books using that method to have the spec. remember a card. It's up to the PERFORMER to make it all work, make it all make sense. It ain't the method, guys, it's the guys! HL
(I've just - yesterday - finished re-writing Amazing Prediction for my next book [I won't say its name because I really don't need the ensuing posts re: my plugging my books]- and if that "ain't" a killer routine [where the spec. remembers a card at an unknown - to the performer - number - I don't know what is.)
[email]harrylorayne@earthlink.net[/email]
http://www.harrylorayne.com http://www.harryloraynemagic.com |
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erlandish Inner circle Vancouver, Canada 1254 Posts |
Harry, if you don't mind me asking, what does it take to make that sort of technique work, in your opinion? I also dislike it because it's too process-heavy (I just want to get to the effect) but what presentationally can help a performer overcome it?
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Mike Powers Inner circle Midwest 2983 Posts |
Cain I basically agree with you. It is a really convoluted way to arrive at a selection. There are, however, some very good effect that use this method. I think it has to be handled very carefully for two reasons. One, it is very contrived. Two, it's easy for a spectator to screw up and not remember both the number and the card.
Mike
Mike Powers
http://www.mallofmagic.com |
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Harry Lorayne 1926 - 2023 New York City 8558 Posts |
Erlandish: Check out the the effect/routine I mentioned in my post. Other than that, I really don't know - I never have any problem with it. Don't get me wrong, I don't use it often. Perhaps that's the key. HL
[email]harrylorayne@earthlink.net[/email]
http://www.harrylorayne.com http://www.harryloraynemagic.com |
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vinsmagic Eternal Order sleeping with the fishes... 10957 Posts |
Vlad Im not familar with the effect you mentioned, I can also do this with any no of spectators of coursemy effect is very Balsy
vinny |
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ViciousCycle Loyal user 210 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-05-17 16:53, Cain wrote: The problem is that there's often nothing in the scripting to give a compelling reason for the spectator to do the actions that are performed. RRTCM's "Mountebank Miracle" as written in the book didn't bother to include any scripting. Spectator does odd things for no other reason than you say so. When I do Mountebank Miracle, I'm doing a lucky number experiment, and the spectator is doing things to focus their thoughts on their lucky number. In addition, I have to change the handling from what's in the book, so that it's not a series of contrived actions leading to the card reveal. |
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Caliban Special user 727 Posts |
For me, the problem with this approach is not so much that it's convoluted, but more that it relies on the spectator really paying attention and following your instructions correctly. I've seen this type of procedure fail several times because the assisting spectator made a mistake.
One potential problem is that, after the spectator has hopefully remembered the card at the correct number, you carry on slowly showing him cards one at a time - and he will register the names of all those cards because they are very deliberately being displayed to him. That makes it much more likely that he'll get confused and forget the card he was supposed to remember. This makes it a technique that that can only safely be used for a very attentive and intelligent spectator - and in a venue where there are no other distractions. |
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Larry Barnowsky Inner circle Cooperstown, NY where bats are made from 4770 Posts |
I have them count the cards in their hand twice. I've never had a failure. Obviously, you don't want to do this for a demented person or someone you think can't follow instructions.
I've gotten some pretty strong positive reactions from this type effect, usaully doing "Natural Selection". Harry Lorayne's Amazing Prediction is an understatement. It is truly amazing to the spectator. Larry |
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dune Regular user 126 Posts |
For what it's worth I always felt effects of this type are flawed because they feel unfinished - more time is spent masking the underlying mathematics principle and not enough is devoted to engaging the audience. It IS convoluted an indirect because it has to be to hide the principle. It's more mystery than magic.
The solutions mentioned are varied. Harry's Amazing Prediction works because he is a superb performer and paces it to carry the audience with him. "Timely Departure" relies on the clock, an easy image for audiences to follow, but having 3(!)cards remembered insures this can only be performed at a Mensa convention. Overkill is probably the most direct solution but in my (limited) experience audiences are left more puzzled than entertained. So Cain is right. There's a time and a place for these types of effects, but if your audience has anything more than two glasses of wine, forget it. Break out the scarves and TT, it's gonna be a long night. |
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JanForster Inner circle Germany ... when not traveling... 4190 Posts |
Generally I see the same problem. But I do agree that most often we have a scripting problem. Roberto Giobbi offers some excellent scripting propositions. Just look into his "Light"-Series. Jan
Jan Forster
www.janforster.de |
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Harry Lorayne 1926 - 2023 New York City 8558 Posts |
Dune: You don't have to be a "Superb performer" (I do thank you, however) for my Amazing Prediction to be "truly amazing to the spectator" (to quote Larry). You do have to be "some kind" of "performer;" if not, why are you "performing" in the first place? I do teach how to present the routine in my write-up of the item.
Of course, there's a time and place for these "types of effects." I've said that often enough in my writings. If the people in your audience have had too much to drink (and it shows)I wouldn't do my Out Of This Universe for them either. I wouldn't do any long routine for an audience that I feel has a short attention span. That comes with experience. Your own remark about your "limited experience" must be "noticed" here. I honestly don't think, and I mean no disrespect, that a person with limited experience should be telling some of us who've been in magic for decades, who is right or wrong in this discussion. You do have to be selective in the items you choose to perform for a "drinking" audience - or don't do ANYTHING for them - unless you're being paid to perform. "Breaking out the scarves and TT" doesn't scan when you're there to do card stuff. And, many perhaps, like me, don't carry around scarves, TTs or holdouts. Interesting, I sold my book, THE MAGIC BOOK, to Putnam & Sons (publisher) by doing one trick for about twenty of their execs and editors - it was a "remember the card at your number" effect. (It's called, It's Impossible - page 146 in that book.) Incidentally, I had the person who was counting down to his number as I showed him cards WHISPER THE NAME OF HIS CARD TO ONE OTHER PERSON. I don't take chances of a thought-of card being forgotten. (I do that whenever I have a card selected or thought of.) Of course, there was more to it, but that effect helped to sell them the book and to come up with an over 6-figure advance! Oh, and they ALL agree that it was MAGIC, although "mystery" is, and should be, part of it all. No? I don't know the effect you refer to - about doing it for a Mensa audience. But I would NEVER do a routine for one person where he or she has to select and remember three cards. Please! That's just what I'm talking about here - SELECTIVITY. I do my Spread Control, where three cards are remembered, very often - but I DO IT FOR THREE PEOPLE. I find it strange that I have to even mention that. Anyway, sorry to take up so much space, just needed to vent a bit. HARRY LORAYNE.
[email]harrylorayne@earthlink.net[/email]
http://www.harrylorayne.com http://www.harryloraynemagic.com |
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Picard Elite user 411 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-05-18 11:49, dune wrote: Timely Departure is a great 3-person effect and everyone remembers just 1 card so I don't understand that Mensa comment. I have had some unbeliavable reactions with it and I don't even use a clock theme (maybe it’s just me but I have always found it boring and stupid), I ask them to select a number by imaginary dice throw. I am relatively new to card magic but I can tell you that Steve Beam, Peter Duffie and James Stewart (amongst many probably) have some VERY nice effects of this type, and as most realised you just have to know how and when to present them. It depends on the effect but my patter usually goes something like this: "I want you to select a card in a fairest possible manner. You know how magicians often offer you a deck of cards and ask you to take out a card. Well, that's exactly when they cheat, either by having marked cards or by influencing you to take a card from a particular part of a deck. I want everything to be completely fair so I'd like you to first select a random number. To prevent me from influencing your choice - and believe me I can do that -I'd like you to just cut a pack of cards anywhere you like. When I turn around silently count these cards and you'll arrive at the secret number that only you know.", etc. etc. Reads long, but this kind of introduction to the effect is necessary in order for it to be logical and appealing to the spectator. |
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Harry Lorayne 1926 - 2023 New York City 8558 Posts |
Picard: Good for you; good way to get into it, and thanks for backing me up on the 3-cards remembered thing - you do it for THREE people. The only argument you'll get from me is re: your definite statement that your kind of introduction is NECESSARY. It's good, Picard, but NOT "necessary." There are other ways. No, I won't go into them. hl
[email]harrylorayne@earthlink.net[/email]
http://www.harrylorayne.com http://www.harryloraynemagic.com |
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Picard Elite user 411 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-05-18 16:56, Harry Lorayne wrote: You are right, "necessary" was too definite, just wanted to show what works best for me. |
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dune Regular user 126 Posts |
Quote:
Reads long, but this kind of introduction to the effect is necessary in order for it to be logical and appealing to the spectator. That's the point. The setup is long and possibly, as Cain noted, convoluted. That doesn't make it a bad trick -- in fact it is quite clever. The original question posed (by Cain) asks is it worth it. That's the discussion. Or maybe, Is it possible to script it to make it more direct? That seems to me to be a valid discussion for mathematically based effects. Incidentally, I never said Timely Departure was a one person trick, only that three cards needed to be remembered. That's not too difficult for each participant, but, let's face it, it makes it more challenging for the audience to follow. My Mensa reference was a joke - OK. I'm no comic, but that's precisely why performers spend so much effort insuring the card gets remembered as Mr. Lorayne pointed out. Some setups are just too complex. BTW, Harry's post reminds me that his "The Magic Book" is the best magic introduction book ever written. Putnam was wise. It's been on my shelf for over 30 years and my favorite magic volume - by far. |
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