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teejay Inner circle Liverpool, UK 1831 Posts 
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Quote:
On 2008-06-12 10:18, Picard wrote: Lots of suggestions and recommendations have been made. Like the above one most pose more questions than they answer. No offense intended but the framework was given by Entity earlier on. If any poster knows an effect then they can use that framework to help other readers. Here is the framework again. I have sub-divided it to help (I hope): 1)A borrowed pack of cards is used. 2)The performer never touches the cards. 3)He writes down the name of a playing card, say, the 4 of Spades, and shows it to everyone (hence the name, Open Prediction). 4)The participant shuffles the cards, then begins to deal cards one at a time face up onto the table. 5)Everyone watches to see if the 4 of Spades turns up. The participant continues to deal through until they feel the urge to stop. When they stop, they deal the next card face down, unseen, to one side. 6)Then they continue dealing through the remainder of the pack face up. 7)Finally all of the cards have been dealt and the 4 of Spades didn't show up. The participant turns the card that they dealt face down over, and it is the 4 of Spades, the card predicted at the beginning. The above is far from perfect. But it may be of some help. Some conditions are more important than others. Here goes Karl Fulves More Self Working Card Effects 1),2),3) Excellent 100% 4) The spec will think it is so 5),6),7). The production of the card is different and is not as strong as the one above. I have used this because it it so simple (and cheap LOL) Works for lay people only. Magicians will think that you have cracked up :) |
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Oyama Inner circle Portland, OR. 1054 Posts
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I have sent a PM to Slydini62 asking the same questions. This thread is not about ANY Open Prediction effect. The only ones that are of interest is just like teejay stated, ones with those conditions. If the performer has to touch the cards at any time, then it is not even in the same realm of Open Prediction effects.
I love the LA Open, but it is not close to what this is about. To me the LA Open is an entirely different effect. Yes it is an "Open Prediction", but the magician handling the cards through the entire effect changes it. Yes, I am a snob when it comes to the "Open Prediction" effect. I even bought Ibidem #3 that had 25 plus solutions to the open prediction from Stewart James. None were of interest to me. Something about the magician handling the cards through the effect changes it for me. Just my opinion. Aaron
"it's better to live one day as a lion, than a thousand years as a lamb."
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entity Inner circle Canada 5060 Posts
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Oyama: You should mention that in Ibidem #3 Stewart spoke of his ultimate version, 51 Faces North, but didn't reveal the method. In that version he doesn't touch the cards. He gives lots of interesting and creative ideas for Open Prediction methods, which are of definite use to those wishing to devise their own methods.
- entity
email: tomebaxter@icloud.com
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Oyama Inner circle Portland, OR. 1054 Posts
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I agree with you entity. I guess I am just spoiled with the two versions that you came up with. I guess I was thinking their would be more "hands off" ideas in Ibidem #3.
Aaron
"it's better to live one day as a lion, than a thousand years as a lamb."
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Lseeyou Inner circle 1271 Posts
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Slydini BINGO
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The Game Regular user Israel 180 Posts
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I am not trying to fish for the method or something, but I just wanted to know if there is any kind of dual reality or some double talk involved. Is it allowed according to the problem's rules?
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entity Inner circle Canada 5060 Posts
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There are no "rules" per se.
Stewart James set out the conditions under which his version, 51 Faces North could be performed. I posted those conditions earlier in this thread. Condition number 9 states: "No alternative meanings or effects." I suppose that this would rule out dual reality and double talk, if you want to adhere to Stewart's conditions. - entity
email: tomebaxter@icloud.com
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teejay Inner circle Liverpool, UK 1831 Posts
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Hi All
Entity gave two lists of conditions for this effect. Unfortunately, in my post above, I used the SHORTER one.Apologies to Entity and other readers. Here is the fuller version AND with Entity's numbers:- Quote:
On 2008-05-23 09:43, entity wrote: |
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Y2John Inner circle 1498 Posts
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I would love to see entity's 2 alternate takes on the open prediction plot, along with the other included material.
Hopefully you can get a page up with details etc as after 'a card merely thought of' I am looking forward to seeing other material you have to offer. I do 2 different 'open predictions', one uses a gimmick but is completely hands off and can be done with a borrowed deck... this one looks as clean as the one set out by Stewart James, but isn't as something is needed other than the deck. The other is completely impromptu and hands-off... though the 'open prediction' is probably the weakest of the things I use the principle to achieve. entity's has really got me thinking as to what else can be done as it appears he's found a way to have an effect that keeps within all those points listed by Stewart James. Very impressive to us as performers. |
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silverking Inner circle 4574 Posts
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The most comprehensive single source on the Open Prediction (which also contains one of the published versions of entity's brilliant work on the effect) is both "Stewart James in Print", and "The James File".
(entity's take is in "The James File" if you want to get one volume at a time). There's dozens and dozens of versions of Open Prediction, from most of your favorite (well known) magicians. I've heard there isn't a whole lot of these sets of books left at Hermetic Press, and there's serious doubt as to whether they'll ever be reprinted, because of the books size, cost, and relatively limited market. I've said it here before, there's material in these books that quite honestly may have NEVER been performed in public. Stewart was SO prolific, and so inventive, that these Hermetic volumes take months and months to read, and would likely take a lifetime to actually perform and perfect each of Stewart's effects contained within. I mentioned in another post recently that I will occasionally pick a favorite James effect that I've noted while reading these books, prepare the items required to perform it, practice it for a while, and then take it to a magi gathering where not only has the magi present never seen the effect before, but 9 times out of 10 it totally baffles all the magi viewing. Stewart is one of my magic idols. He had a tough life, but it was the magic that made it bearable for him.........and all of that magic output (well, except "51 Faces North") is in these volumes. INCLUDING the worlds greatest concentration in print of the best offerings of the Open Prediction effect. Much like Berglas's big book which supposedly contains tips to the key of his ACAAN effect, I'm not sure that the seeds of "51 Faces North" aren't contained within these two James volumes. If you read them carefully, and read them enough times, you begin to see what the version that Stewart took to the grave with him might have looked like. |
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teejay Inner circle Liverpool, UK 1831 Posts
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Most of the readers here have been drawn by Entity's name or 'Open Prediction'.
Unfortunately, Entity does not seem to have any plan to release his versions? So what are we left with? Speaking for myself, very little. I came to this thread because Entity's book ACMTO made me into an expert in a mind blowing effect lol I was hoping to get the same in the Open Prediction. We have had couple of pricey items recommended, about which nobody will say much. I understand this because the list of SJ's conditions does seem unworkable. Many excellent versions couldn't meet half the conditions. This is because the list of conditions are a challenge to MASTER MAGICIANS! The solutions are meant to fool other magicians. Because the thread has bogged down (for me), so I must give myself a reality check: I am not a Master Magicians. I do not work for other magicians. So all I need is a version that will fool lay people. This means that most of the conditions are now redundant for me. For me, a revised set would be: 1. Borrowed cards may be used. 2. The deck is ordinary, and might even have cards missing. You don't have to know which cards, or how many are missing. You only have to be sure that the card you predict is there. 3. You do not need privacy with the cards to set something up. 4. The deck is never out of sight for a moment. 5. Strictly impromptu. No set-up, stooges or special tools necessary. 6. The spectator deals 7. It is not a once-in-a-while trick. If the instructions are followed, it cannot fail. 8. The cards are SEEMINGLY never handled by the performer from first to last, at any time during or after the trick. 9. The spectator himself checks that the face down card is the predicted one. IMVHO these conditions would make a baffling effect for lay people. Some of these conditions could be unnecessary as well because of the nature of the effect. My suggestion (Karl Fulves) meets them and I have fooled lay people with it. Does anybody know of any other versions of OP that would fool lay people. It must meet or seem to meet some of above conditions. I apologise for hijacking the main thrust of the thread but I'm sure a lot of readers would like to hear of some practical, working versions of this mind blowing effect? :) |
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entity Inner circle Canada 5060 Posts
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Teejay:
2 of my versions have been published, but I believe are no longer available. Within a week or so, I'll be putting an ad up here for an e-book of card effects. Many of these are effects that I've previously published, but that are either out of print, or not easily available. Included in the e-book will be two versions of The Open Prediction. As you'll see if you buy the e-book, these versions of the Open Prediction aren't only for "experts" or elite performers. Anyone can do these routines. That's sort of the point of this thread, as I see it. If you think creatively, there are many ways to approach the Open Prediction. While it's certainly not necessary to meet all of Stewart James' conditions in order to mystify and entertain an audience, it's an interesting exercise to try to meet Stewart's guidelines. You don't need to be a Master Magician to come up with your own version. - entity
email: tomebaxter@icloud.com
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Marc Spelmann Special user London U.K. 666 Posts
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Quote:
On 2008-05-30 15:12, Elcio wrote: I enjoyed this version too, certainly one of the highlights of Josh's DVD which for anyone interested is a great DVD. I had the pleasure of watching Josh lecture a month ago and he was superb.. I think it's fair to say that Entity's version is different, the cards are borrowed which makes it astonishing. I have a card at any number which a very rarely present, it is as clean as you could imagine, borrowed deck, very hands off and both any card can be named and any number. On my original 4 DVD's I had a hidden performance only of one version, I have three versions each has it's strengths. Enitity's Open Prediction sounds great and better that it is left a mystery, after all how often do we with all the secrets we know ever experience that wonder.. M.S.
It's not goodbye, just see you later...
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ThePreeningNinny New user Under the Bed 84 Posts
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I think it must be stressed that Stewart James was very liberal with his conditions for effects, they were sometimes worded very ambiguously to throw fellow magicians off the scent. I'm sure that the effect is not as straightforward as it first appears. His conditions do not state anything about how the effect is played, the spectator could be asked to think of a number and deal the card aside on that number etc, this compromises the original presentation.
I have thought about this for a couple of weeks now and have come up with a few solutions that fit all of James' conditions, however, none are as straightforward as the spectator dealing through the cards and on a total whim puts a card to the side which turns out to be the prediction. If this is what people are trying to achieve in the constraints of the conditions I think they are climbing a slippery slope, but that's just me. I also came up with a version where the spectator can think of a number, then thinks of a card in the deck, deals through putting the card at their number aside face down, it turns out to be the thought of card - performer never touches the deck. I am no master magician but you can create some interesting ideas if you think laterally and hard enough. It's going to be a while before I can come up with a version of the Open Prediction I am completely happy with I think. But at least having a guideline of conditions and ideals helps you to step up to the mark a bit more, and even if you never get there, you can create some other related effect that is rather good in its own right. So at least it's got us thinking? |
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teejay Inner circle Liverpool, UK 1831 Posts
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Quote:
On 2008-06-15 09:02, entity wrote: LOL Hi Entity YOU don't NEED to be a Master Magician, you are already one. I had to really sweat before I realized that the conditions are what you describe. An exercise in the discipline of magic. I have had unbelievable, tremendous fun researching and thinking about this effect. I started thinking about the parts of Fulves version of OP that didn't meet the conditions. I got a great buzz when I saw ways around some of the blocks and meet some of SJ's conditions. I now fully understand the excitement of this type interesting exercise. lol Great news about your upcoming ebook :) |
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ipe Special user 515 Posts
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Quote:
On 2008-06-15 09:02, entity wrote: I'm looking forward to read your ebook. Thanks 
What would a real mindreader do?
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ipe Special user 515 Posts
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Quote:
On 2008-06-15 13:05, ThePreeningNinny wrote: This sounds also more impossible. Great!
What would a real mindreader do?
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ThePreeningNinny New user Under the Bed 84 Posts
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Quote:
On 2008-06-15 13:05, ThePreeningNinny wrote: This sounds also more impossible. Great! [/quote] Not impossible, just more protracted. Like I said, never takes the descriptions James gave as the literal fact! |
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entity Inner circle Canada 5060 Posts
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I'm very pleased to read that this discussion has compelled people to think more, to be creative and to flex their imaginations in order to work on The Open Prediction problem.
Just a note in response to P.Ninny's admonitions not to take the descriptions too literally... Take this exactly as I say it: My version of The Open Prediction called A Dianoetic Rage plays EXACTLY as the problem set out by Curry. Meeting all of Stewart's conditions, the participant stops freely at a point of their choosing (or whim, if you prefer), leaving one card aside face down. It is the predicted card. There is no alternate meaning or instruction. My other, previously published versions of the Open Prediction are a little less straightforward, but the primary consideration is the effect to the audience. Stewart's conditions might be looked at as an ideal. The closer one can come to meeting an ideal while achieving the desired effect, the more satisfying the end to the performer, in my opinion. - entity
email: tomebaxter@icloud.com
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ThePreeningNinny New user Under the Bed 84 Posts
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Quote:
Just a note in response to P.Ninny's admonitions not to take the descriptions too literally... Take this exactly as I say it: My version of The Open Prediction called A Dianoetic Rage plays EXACTLY as the problem set out by Curry. If that's true then you're a better man than I. I'll probably need a lot longer to think of the problem to come up with a satisfying solution, and that's no guarantee, it is a particuarly hard problem I think. I had put off buying the James file for a long time because of the expense, I am a poor student, but recently got it and saw that your solution as well as a few others in there used the same method I had come up with for one of mine, a method dating back to Annemann I think - but not a full proof method - breaking one of James' conditions. Is the other method you've referred to being printed the one in an issue of Antinomy? If it is, it is a very Jamesian solution, and as I said - more protracted. I think the most difficult thing with this effect is exactly the spectator allowed to deal a card aside on a 'whim'. My initial thoughts were James used some kind of mathematical force or clock trick variation. But discounting these as viable solutions allows you to move on to other ideas and maybe come up with something interesting, while indeed not being a solutions to the problem. The only trouble is this makes the effect about a thousand times more difficult to achieve. It is pretty interesting that people like Marlo and many others had sat at the problem for many years yet I've never seen a clean and straightforward handling by any of them! Anybody who can achieve that while maintaining James' conditions has some of my respect. |
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Posted: Jun 12, 2008 05:01 pm 
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