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triadsong Regular user Long Island, NY 170 Posts 
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Uhm, something similiar happened to me. You see, I do a kid's magic show - totally platform style. Last night I got totally wasted on tequila and agreed to do a milk can escape. I don't swim well but I have ten days so....
Please, JUST SAY NO! Give this job to a professional and get work in your own field. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21245 Posts
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Quote:
On 2008-05-29 16:32, Anthony Jacquin wrote: I am a fan of finding things to agree about and I agree with this. TOTALLY. Thank you for saying it Anthony. I also am happy to hear you are not claiming to turn people into a hypnotist in one day. Bravo and sets you apart again. I have to just chime in with one thing and it is not spacific to hypnosis. I am often amazed that guys take shows, they are not qualified to do. It is just short of bait and switch. I would NEVER do therapy, even though HUNDREDS ask me every year. Why? I am not qualified that is why. Well when a therapist takes a show, they are not qualified. When an amateur magician who does one or 2 tricks well takes a show and they have never done one or practiced or considered one, they are not qualified. Again bait and switch. I never know why people feel the need to do this. Fact is the dirty little secret here is the "hypnosis" part is not the largest part of the show. The things you do with them once they are in the state is what is important. THAT IS WHAT TAKES SO MUCH TIME TO LEARN. Much like therapy. The hypnotic state is not the toughest part. That is self induced from their end anyhow. The time is spent learning WHAT TO DO AFTERWORDS. I guess that is just my position. I am not saying anyone should or should not do anything. Just clarifying things a bit is all.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts
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While I agree with everything you said above. I would also like to add that the safety and well-being of the audience is even more important. And to neglect this is just bad for everyone. We aren't doing a few tricks here we are taking risks that are not inherant in other forms of performance. It takes time to become professional from a safety point of view.
I wish Anthony well with his hypnosis school. However experience has told me "FREE" anything just attracts the wrong clients. |
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bobser Inner circle 4179 Posts
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Quote:
On 2008-05-29 19:38, mindpunisher wrote: Well actually you did try something else since failing miserably as a hypnotist, but it looks like it's not working out too well for you since you've been seen & heard begging for gigs on Spain at aroung 40 quid a hit. And I believe you're not getting any work there either? Quote:
Stage hypnosis is banned from most of the decent venue's. There is also pressure in parts of scotland being put on bar owners who may lose their license if the use hypnotists. I know this from a friend who still does the odd show. First of all lets get it straight, you don't have any friends. Secondly, for anyone reading this, MP doesn't know his arse from his elbow. If anyone, and I mean anyone, wants to PM me and ask for a gig, literally anywhere in Scotland, I'll set it up for you in 7 days, GUARANTEED!!! A hypnosis training day? No probs, gimme a week and I'll give you 20 to 30 people. But he is right in as much as BAD hypnotists get a bad name and it spreads quickly. They don't get gigs and no one turns up to train with them. And everybody knows that. What was the advice he gave earlier? Ah yes, "Don't use your own name". Sad huh? Quote:
I'm not available for stage coaching if I was I would be charging for it. Which would mean you would never have access to it. Because you would never pay. However I see Anthony has stepped in offering free courses so youl be fine. So Anthony Jacquin hears that another member of The Café(me) puts his pride in his pocket and asks for help, and Anthony decides to say: "Yes, I'll give you whatever help you need, no charge." And then there's you MP, a sad little man finding a problem with this, totally unable to understand why one man would help another without charge. And Anthony does this even though he is able to charge for his courses because he actually KNOWS what he's talking about. Y'see MP he's a pro. He doesn't have a problem finding gigs or training others. ALL the things that you simply can't do, indeed, let's be honest, have probably never done. Nobody in here knows who you are and you don't want to tell them. Tell you what, let's call you (ahem)Brian. Sounds just about right to me. Quote:
I have no desire to do stage work never have for many years. Well, we know you've been begging for gigs but haven't managed to get any. But hey, enough pain for one day, let's let that one go, you're hurting enough already. Finally, When Anthony Jacquin said he was doing his one day training in Scotland I immediately offered to help as a way of repaying his kind offer to have me on his one day course earlier in the year in Hurst Green. I got together with a very well known businessman who felt it only proper that Anthony, who'd be travelling over 1,000 miles to do this, should be properly re-embursed. To cut a long story short, when I telephoned Anthony to tell him there wouldn't be a problem putting at least a couple grand (sterling) in his pocket he actually refused! Now Mind punisher, or Brian, you're simply not going to able to take this on board. But this is the quality of some of the guys whom you constantly try to mock in here. Why don't you try and join in the parade instead of constantly berating everyone from the sidelines?
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
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mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts
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If Anthony refused to put money in his pocket then that's really his choice. I wouldn't do any training without money being involved. Anthony is also quite a young guy. 10 or more years in business might change his values.
So you equate quality with not accepting money? We just have a different value system Bobser. Years of doing work for free and trying to help others for free has taught me it isn't a smart move at least not for me. I believe eventually Anthony will come to that conclusion to. I'm not berating anyone I am sharing my opinion which you take or leave. I am also playing around on here. I take as good as I get. I have never begged for gigs. I have looked into the market and its not there. Unless you want to work for nothing. I don't work for nothing. I have also worked through the witch hunts and bad publicity. I am genuinely concerned that some of the things going on at the moment could lead to some serious revisits of these times. The real pain Ive experienced is making a lot of money for business clients but not figuring away to make it for myself. Now that problem is now being solved. that's a path Ive been struggling down for a number of years. that's the path Im happy to go down and the one I want to go down. Right now I am in the middle of negotiations that if successful will be a first in the legal system in scotland. Yes sure I was offered £40 a show in spain. About a year before that I was earning nearly £4k a show. That was a long time ago. I went over to spain to check out the hypnosis scene years ago. Apart from the money I didn't like the scene the lager louts and the way of life. £40 was the going rate at that time in Spain. I have no idea what is now but my guess its probably around £100 - £150 a show. Sure Ild love to do stage shows again its easy money at that level or even a bit lower. But my only interest would be to make money. I have no real interest in doing stage shows for the love of it. Back then it paid well even the clubs and hotels paid well. Now they pay LESS than nearly 15 years ago. Plus there really are only a few opportunties not worth putting time into. Your right Bobser I can't take on board your reality just like you can't take on mine. We are looking through different lenses. You also don't seem to take on board that most of the source of gigs in scotland have banned stage hypnosis. Mainly due to the market being over run with self taught hypnotists who caused so many problems it was enevitable that the market would crash. |
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mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts
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The last thing hypnosis needs right now here is a new wave running around doing it randomly in public places. But that's just my opinion. Take it or leave it. Hypnosis is a fantastic tool I just think it deserves a little more respect.
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21245 Posts
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Quote:
On 2008-05-30 21:34, mindpunisher wrote: You may not believe this but we do agree here on both points.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Nongard1 Special user 664 Posts
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On 2008-05-29 11:01, Cyar wrote: Don Mottin is giving bad advice then. People paid for ENTERTAINMENT, not a psychology lecture. And most stage hypnotists are ill prepared to do a meaningful "lecture". I have heard this advice attributed to a number of people, often with a real chip on the shoulder "I would never do a show for less than 50!" WRONG.... as a professional, one should be prepared to do a show with ANY number of people... Just about any hypnotist can pull off a good show with 200 people in the audience... it is the real pro who can pull it off woth three people onstage and 24 in the audience! And the easiest way to make certain you don't have any further books it to tell a group, "Sorry, your not big enough for me" or at the last minute to say "Your party guests are getting a classroom lecture..." I have seen Cerbone to a one man show. And it was funny! Bet Anthony can pull that off too.... Richard
Dr. Richard Nongard, Professional Hypnosis Training
Learn how to master the art of SpeedTrance, Clinical and Stage Hypnosis |
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bobser Inner circle 4179 Posts
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Quote:
On 2008-05-30 21:34, mindpunisher wrote: I don't believe there's anyone in here would disagree with that. In fact I've yet to see a post in here supporting: 'running around doing it it randomly in public places' and I don't know anyone who does that. I do think we should think slow before acting fast. We should ask ourselves what a person actually meant when they said a certain thing, before taking it out of context and adding an adjective here and an adverb there. There is simply no point in constructing a happening in the minds of people that, in reality, never took place. However, what I think IS happening, in todays modern world, is that young academic students of psychology, not wanting to pay what they consider to be absorbetent (spelt ok?) prices, or lets be honest they just cannot afford to go on the thousand pound plus courses, still want to go and 'get their hypnosis OUT'. That's all that's happening. There are no BAD guys here.
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
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mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts
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Then we percieve "street attacks" differently. I thought street attacks involve public places of random choice.
I don't think anyone is "bad" I just think its a bad idea. In light of all the stuff that's happened in the past and the current situation with many councils and universities effectively banning hypnosis. And now even bar owners are getting the squeeze. What will happen will happen but its not something I am really interested in. The value of stage work here has plummeted. I can only see this as taking it further down the road. Either way I hope you manage to keep out of any anti backlash should this street attack thing catch on to any considerable degree. Because if it does its almost enevitable it will happen. I am not a BAD guy either. I'm just voicing my opinion. And having nothing against you personally. "Sparring" with you on here is just a bit of fun. Watching the demise of stage hypnosis is something that used to bother me but now I really don't care. |
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mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts
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Quote:
On 2008-05-31 07:24, Nongard1 wrote: But why? I thought professional meant someone who actually made real money out of their craft? I started out doing small groups. But once I got to a certain level I wouldn't bother accepting bookings below a certain number. I don't understand the logic. I believe your mindset attracts whatever level you are prepared to accept. Water finds its own level etc. that's why once you hit a certain level theres no really going back. At least in my mind. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21245 Posts
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Now we get to the sarcasam.
There are HUNDREDS of reasons, completly out of the control of the performer which can make for small shows. Tell ya what, the 24 people paid the same money that they would if there were 200 people. Do you refund half the money because you do a worse show? I have seen shows with 200 people in them and they sucked! Do I get money back? No. So to attribute things like this to audience size is pitifull on the part of the performer. THIS IS ONE REASON I say it takes years to become a great performer. I have done shows with one person in them and they do rock relativly speaking. It is about being a professional. Your reasoning MP is why you are so bitter and not doing stage work any more. Pretty simple really. I have had shows where a few show up, and they did great. I have had shows with a ton of people at them that went mediocre. Go figure.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts
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You really have a problem Danny don't you? you see a problem and bitterness where it doesn't exist. If you do shows where 24 people pay the same as 200 then I salute
you. I,ld be very interested to see those invoices. I think your on drugs. My reasoning is why Im now moving away from stage hypnosis because the earning potential has evaporated in this country. My reasoning is why Im now back on track to earning the kind of money I used to earn but had to create a new market. NO ONE DOES HYPNOSIS SHOWS IN SCOTLAND ANYMORE AND MAKES A REALLY GOOD LIVING. The market isn't there. If you can get 24 people to pay you the kind of money you claim then I think that's great. Perhaps once in a blue moon. I doubt very much they would get their money's worth though. I don't think anyone could get that kind of money here. Not for a hypnosis gig. For one hypnosis is considered low brow and down market entertainment in this country and always has. I had shows where few people turned up did great to. But the ones that paid me the sort of money I want had lots of people turn up. At the end of the day its what level you want to work at. I didn't want to do those gigs and I quickly rose to doing the kind of gigs that generated the kind of money I wanted. Just as now I am creating the kind of services and products that will generate the kind of money I want. Bitter? Perhaps Im just a little more creative and ambitious than you? I just have a different meaning for professional. To me its accepting what you know your worth and having the courage to reject what you don't want even when you need it. I don't undertand the logic of working with small groups as a measure of professionalism. I cut my teeth on small groups most beginners do. Because that's usually the only options open to them. Perhaps you just don't like the fact that you have to do more of those small groups than you would like to. Your the one that sounds bitter to me. Using the small size of a group to measure professionalism is about as cockeyed as claiming to be the fatest. You should only ever accept gigs or anything else in life that are true to yourself. Its called integrity. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21245 Posts
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And the point is yet again missed.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Nongard1 Special user 664 Posts
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The size of the group can have little to do with profitability. Some pay a flat fee no matter how many people, and at that small show you might meet the next guy to book you 10 shows a year for 200 people. People who wont learn how to do a small show slit there own throat in business.
Dr. Richard Nongard, Professional Hypnosis Training
Learn how to master the art of SpeedTrance, Clinical and Stage Hypnosis |
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JasonLinett Loyal user Alexandria, VA 202 Posts
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Quote:
On 2008-06-01 16:05, mindpunisher wrote: Yes, I know it was a typo, but still, I'd like to see a run of hypnotists claiming the skill of being the "World's Fattest." Let's see how many weight loss CDs that guy sells after his show! And hey... stop fighting. 
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21245 Posts
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I guess the point is you are paid to do a job, you should do the job right? Is that not what a pro does in the end? HIS JOB?
So you end up with 25 people, and the night will not be profitable, and you will not sell nearly as many DVD's after your show. Those people did NOT KNOW they were going to be a small crowd now did they? Why should they get a lesser quality show than if 250 showed up? The idea is ludicris at best. I am not claiming anything except that the people who show up should, heck are ENTITLED TO the best possible show and the cop out of a lecture is not that. It has NOTHING TO DO with "fastest" or some stupid comparison you want to make. Hey here is an idea. How about you offer those people a refund when you tell them you are not really doing the show but offering a lame lecture? How about you take no fee at all? If you are not willing to do this then suck it up be a pro and do the darn show for the people who have paid you to see the thing. I have done shows where the first in a series starts out with under 50. Yep actually 23 people. But when I was done doing the thing once a week for only a few weeks word spread like wild fire and we had to pre sell tickets and add shows. Do you think that would happen if we had canceled shows and did lectures? How many people would tell their friends what a great "lecture on hypnosis" they saw? So again I agree with Richard, I see that advice and I cringe. It is quite short sighted and can really cut your own throat in a way. Maybe when you are as established as our friend Mindpunisher then you can do things like that. But those of us who have to toil away in reality have long term considerations to think of. Then I have this annoying thing I guess is not as prevelant as I think it is. I like to actually give people what they pay for. It is not all about me in the end. You know that out dated concept of "customer service" and all. Guess that is not going well across the pond either huh MP? Once I agree to do the show, FOR WHATEVER MONEY, then they get the same show. Seems to make sense to me. It is also why earlier I agreed with the ol MP when he said smart things about people not taking shows when they have not really worked them up.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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bobser Inner circle 4179 Posts
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In the heat of debate there can be times when I'm not too sure when I'm winning the argument or not. Yet funnily enough, I always know when I've just been slaughtered!
I think this is a good time MP for saying to Danny and Richard: "Thanks for enlightening me, I never really thought about it that way". Then we can all be friends and go play in the woods.
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
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Vincent.Lynch Elite user 409 Posts
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On 2008-05-29 07:21, bobser wrote: Jeez ant, we'll be giving them their own parliment next.. I'll blame you when theres a war. [edit: reads thread - decides to repost] I've just read the thread, and I want to say thankyou to everyone who's participated in the thread, it really is top quality advice. Without explaining my own personal situation too much, I just feel so honored to hear professionals talking about these points of organising successful repeated stage hypnosis shows and what they involve. |
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mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts
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Danny:
I agree with you on customer service. that's why I commit myself to only delivering shows that have the chance of giving people what they paid for. Low numbers don't do that not for a hypnosis show. When I started I did a few bars to start and quickly realised that the surroundings and physical setting interrupted the quality of the show. So even although I was being asked to do more I refused. Instead I visited hotels and bars only with function rooms. Provided all the publicity materials and I took the door money while they took the bar. So the shows cost them nothing. At that time agents wouldn't use me. I also took advice from my mentor to charge 25-50% more than local established hypnotists. If not enough folks bought tickets I would cancel the show and return money. Although when I first started that would be rare. It took about four or five months before my name was going around. I was also doing something fresh at that time and in a way no one else in my area was. Therefore agents were being asked if they could book me by venues much to their annoyance. So they approached me only to find I put my price up again. They hated me. By this time I didn't need to do a door deal and had fixed prices that venues were happy to pay. Then came the 4 walling. I didn't need the small venues so once again I put my prices up for that type of venue. I actually got more bookings! I think its a mindset. You get what you think your worth its nothing to do with customer service. I did great jobs for the size and quality of venues I wanted to do. I refused those or refunded money for those that didn't meet my criteria. Which takes courage when you are going through a quiet period. But to do so wouldn't be true to yourself. You don't have to do shows in conditions you don't want to. Likewise doing therapy you don't have to work with everyone that contacts you. Your clients shop around before they book you so why not do the same with clients? It all depends upon what you want ot of it. The bigger the goal though the higher the price in commitment disappointments and kicks in the teeth before you get there. Life is like that you take the easy immediate road or you go for a higher destination. Its choice anyone can make. But you can't do both. Likewise I now use hypnosis in a different context (persuasion) but it has taken years of self torture and being used etc to get there. Finally ive cracked it just signed up my first company for a 2 year contract. And a second to follow. No one is doing what Im doing in Scotland if not the UK. I stopped doing training programmes and only do 2 year contracts now. Which was brave since this has been a tough year. I turned down work when I needed it most. I stuck by my decision now its working out. I could've took the easy route and accepted whatever came my way. I didn't its not my mindset. Like I said I don't understand the logic in accepting small shows. Sure at the very beginning when your starting out. But aim to get out of that situation as quickly as you can. Fostering the belief that's its professional to accept small shows is aiming to stay there. Do you really want doomed to doing these gigs forever? |
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Posted: May 30, 2008 12:19 pm 
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