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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » You are getting sleepy...very sleepy... » » Faking It (STAGE hypnotist) (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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mindpunisher
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Ok Im a mercenary then. And proud. Well professional to me means the business side to. I used to hate doing small venues they were "crude" if you ask me. The larger venues were not only paid better you could do more intricate shows. Why would you want to do the lesser venues if you had the choice?

And its not doing the job for the biggest amount of money its creating the conditions that allow it to happen. To me that's a lot more fun and challenge. And of course you can only attract that kind of money by doing the right things and giving value. That is also professional ability if you ask me.

But Im happy with mercinary its better than martyr.

Of course we are only expressing beliefs and opinions but personally I don't think you could do it with someone who is useless. Ive met the said magician from Faking it and hes naturally outgoing and has a personality.

I think some on here would find it hard to fake it as a magician..Plus all those tv shows have everything stacked in their favour.
WillBox
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On 2008-06-04 18:16, mindpunisher wrote:
Ive met the said magician from Faking it and hes naturally outgoing and has a personality.


MP your use of the word 'naturally' is a misjudgement on your part. Did you see the show? Did you see the shy, introverted, physics student who collected jumpers for different days? Before the Faking It experience he was anything BUT outgoing. This is the whole point. Being forced out of his comfort zone released a new confidence. Also - everyone has a personality of some sort - and being confident then helps to express it.

Plus the idea of 'useless' is totally subjective and variable, which again as bobser mentioned is the whole point of the show. People often appear to be 'useless' because they believe they are, a belief which gets in the way of learning new skills or having the confidence to progress. With encouragement, experience and confidence what was once useless suddenly becomes very expressive and inspiring. This is why its such a good show - it challenges your perceptions about peoples abilities, and just how variable concepts like 'useless' or 'outgoing' or 'personality' are.

I also still fail to see the connection between a persons training and some unwritten law that says they 'should' then be professional. Surely its down to personal choice - what made the magician program interesting was that he chose that career.

Also bear in mind that the training they recieve is in no way comprehensive for the career they are trying to fake - they learn enough to perform it on the night, but then its mostly about confidence, particularly the confidence to be someone you're not. For example if they DID do a stage hypnosis Faking It, its highly unlikely that the person in question would be anywhere near a fully-fledged professional, but they certainly might CHOOSE to become one based on the experience and the new release of confidence.
Anthony Jacquin
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You are right about the magician Will. It was some transformation.

They have done a stage hypnosis Faking it by the way. It was great.

Anthony
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mindpunisher
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Ok I never saw the show. Even still I am pretty sure the show does research before it makes each programme. I am pretty sure they don't just pick anyone. And while I agree training doesn't automatically guarantee the production of a highly polished professional it would in most cases would provide enough foundation to start doing paid shows.

I sometimes run two day workshops. And the transformation in some of the participants after only one day is incredible. They come in shy by the second day you wouldn't recognise them. So the transformation part isn't necessarily that difficult. For someone to actually want to be on the show it demonstrates quite a high degree of motivation to get out there and do it. Most shy people wouldn't go on the show. So all is not whatit appears to be as in most tv.

Therefore I am pretty sure the researchers know what they are doing and have things stacked in their favour. I am pretty sure the magician had more natural ability than was evident. And the researchers picked him based on that.

But of course these are only assumptions.

Now you mention it he was wearing a nice jumper...
WillBox
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Wow MP that's a pretty negative view. Would it only be inspiring to you if they dug up a skeleton and somehow coached it into growing flesh and long pretty eyelashes and belly-dancing for you?

By the same token, you could argue that the people that attend your workshops (if they exist, as you say for TV - forum postings aren't always what they seem) are already motivated and wanting to 'change' so that's nothing special either (but I would argue that any personal transformation is very special).

Again, the point of the profession argument is that regardless of the training they didn't want to do the career to begin with, they wanted to go through the process for the TV show of 'faking it'. For example, in another show, a Welsh cleaner didn't WANT to be a burlesque dancer, but she faked it for the sake of the show (incidentally this is a girl who cried at the thought of being naked).

MP your attitudes sometimes seem a little incongruent with the work you profess to do - do you for example market yourself in a positive light? Or do you cynically state "you might learn a few things but to be honest you probably knew them already, anyone could do it, its not that difficult".

Btw I just edited a mini-version of the Faking It show for anyone who's interested, and am just uploading it to youtube.
mindpunisher
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"By the same token, you could argue that the people that attend your workshops (if they exist, as you say for TV - forum postings aren't always what they seem) are already motivated and wanting to 'change' so that's nothing special either (but I would argue that any personal transformation is very special)."

Of course your spot on. I never said it wasn't special I said they weren't the norm. The vast majority of the public don't go on courses and never would. The ones that do are half way there already. In therapy I often put up obstacles that must be overcome before I will work with them. By the time I do they have already went half way by themselves.

Wanting to go on the show demonstrates a high degree of motivation not found in the vast majority of the public. Especially the so called shy public.

Think about it they have to filter out the right people or the show would flop. And there isfar too much money involved.

you will be telling me I'm negative because Derren uses editing and the medium of tv to his advantage next.

Change comes from within not outside. And TV programmes are maticulously planned. If you look at the effort that goes into big brother to pick the right psychological profiles it moset likely all these shows do. Why would they leave it to chance?

When you think about it-it's the same with stage hypnosis. For most part those on stage want to be there and are of a certain psychological profile. you couldn't hypnotise everyone in the audience or use them successfully in a show.

Just like you couldn't pick anyone off the street and have a successful Faking It programme. Its all researched.

that's not to say it still isn't a very good programme or incredible transformation.
WillBox
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Sure those are valid points, I have a good appreciation of how the media are just as competent (if not far more) as any top magician or mentalist in crafting a distorted perception in the audience.

But don't start on Derren. He is genuinely psychic and has real powers that have nothing to do with clever editing, dual reality, misdirection and sheer lies (I am joking of course).

The show IS in favour of the production company, but without getting TOO far down this murky path, I just want to remind that the original point I made in response to bobsers post was that I can imagine anyone pushed to performing a stage hypnosis show (that isn't a disaster) is likely to get enough of a buzz to then choose to do it as their main career. It was just a thought...

BTW Anthony, are you sure about the Faking It stage hypnosis show? I can't find any mention on it on t'internet, did you record it by any chance?
bobser
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Quote:
On 2008-06-05 05:46, WillBox wrote:
MP your attitudes sometimes seem a little incongruent with the work you profess to do

Willbox, aren't you the polite one? I have to say that this did make me laugh out loud. Great sense of humour and wonderfully worded. Thankyou.

MP I think you're missing the point and it might be because I haven't explained it properly. Yes the producers DO choose a candidate very carefully. BUT they actually WANT someone that WOULD NOT fit the bill. In other words it is obvious by viewing the programme that they want to give the training professional as hard a job as possible. For example the magician guy could hardly string a sentence together prior to learning not just tricks but also social skills along the way. ie: hesitation, pausation, causation, modulation, emphasising etc.
Back to Willbox's quote (see above) Why do you think that might be? Is it possible that you've been reading the world wrongly? And if so do you think lies within you the skills to re-learn, adapt or even listen? I'm being serious. Because to know what you know and yet not to realise some basic stuff seems to me quite frightening. But heh -ho, I learned many years ago that I simply cannot train the untrainable, teach the unteachable or make happy a sordid b------d. Please take that in the spirit that it's intended.
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bobser
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On 2008-06-05 04:18, Anthony Jacquin wrote:
You are right about the magician Will. It was some transformation.
They have done a stage hypnosis Faking it by the way. It was great.

Anthony


This is what I'm talking about. A colleague writes this thus, coupled with what the other writers have offered I now know that I have as close to a fact as anything? Yes? No?
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WillBox
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I've edited the Faking It Magician special down into its 'essence' (which is still in two parts).

PART ONE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-sk7y_wVzM

PART TWO
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uJpXtZVEP4
mindpunisher
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Quote:
On 2008-06-05 07:06, bobser wrote:
Quote:
On 2008-06-05 05:46, WillBox wrote:
MP your attitudes sometimes seem a little incongruent with the work you profess to do

Willbox, aren't you the polite one? I have to say that this did make me laugh out loud. Great sense of humour and wonderfully worded. Thankyou.

MP I think you're missing the point and it might be because I haven't explained it properly. Yes the producers DO choose a candidate very carefully. BUT they actually WANT someone that WOULD NOT fit the bill. In other words it is obvious by viewing the programme that they want to give the training professional as hard a job as possible. For example the magician guy could hardly string a sentence together prior to learning not just tricks but also social skills along the way. ie: hesitation, pausation, causation, modulation, emphasising etc.
Back to Willbox's quote (see above) Why do you think that might be? Is it possible that you've been reading the world wrongly? And if so do you think lies within you the skills to re-learn, adapt or even listen? I'm being serious. Because to know what you know and yet not to realise some basic stuff seems to me quite frightening. But heh -ho, I learned many years ago that I simply cannot train the untrainable, teach the unteachable or make happy a sordid b------d. Please take that in the spirit that it's intended.
bobser


I don't miss the point Bobser all I am suggesting is that your description is what they want the show to appear as. I am suggesting that the selection of the candidate is very carefuly chosen. In reality they wouldn't pick someone that didn't have a good chance of pulling it off. Of course they don't want it to "look" easy.

It must be someone that on the surface looks like a no hoper but in actual fact they have more than a good chance of pulling it off.

Otherwise the show wouldn't work and all those £100,000s budgeted would go down the drain. Do you really think the producers are that dumb?

THEY FIT THE PRODUCERS BILL. In other words they have more than a good chance of succeeding.

Will rather than reading the world inaccurately perhaps you've been led to percieve something created by a group of TV professionals. You see what they want you to see.

It wasn't so long ago most of the Café believed Derren Brown used NLP.
WillBox
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MP, just out of curiosity, what do you think I believe that in your opinion is somehow wrong or misguided? I've already agreed with your points on the media, its totally obvious that a production company are going to want a positive result, but then that is the whole point of the show. No one has said that "anyone can be turned into anything". For example, its unlikely we're going to see this anytime soon: "Watch Faking It on C4 tonight, where in 4 weeks mindpunisher is coached to fake it as a coherent and positive forum poster who doesn't seek pedantic negative attention - but will he succeed?"
bobser
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Oh oh.
MP yes you do have a point and it's taken. I was making my point so strongly based on reading your initial point, which was that they only pick the BEST candidates.
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mindpunisher
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Do I detect a little turn around?


Well they do only pick the BEST candidates. Best for the programme and the unfolding drama. Which has bee scripted = find someone that "appears" not capable to pull it off and get him in shape for the "judges". Its a formula. The researchers will also have a formula for getting the right candidates.

I know dozens of shy/semi shy people even confident people who couldn't pull it off.

Will coherant to who? this is the magic Café. Its not about attention I'm trying to educate you. you should be grateful.
mindpunisher
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I love people who think someone is negative simply because they don't agree with them.
WillBox
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On 2008-06-05 16:20, mindpunisher wrote:
I'm trying to educate you. you should be grateful.


I can't tell if you're joking or not. Did you notice I edited and uploaded the vids?
bobser
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On 2008-06-05 16:20, mindpunisher wrote:
Do I detect a little turn around?


There y'go making me laugh again. Firstly no I don't think there are any turn arounds here. Apart from your good self who we've all got together and decided to name you 'spinny boy'. Like it? Good!
But, I often do change my opinion and although I've never met him I'd say Will would find that very easy to do also, if he thought it the right thing to do. Puzzling for you huh? Professionals don't do that do they? No money in it. LOL!!!
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bobser
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WOW, just watched both parts in 'faking it'. Well done in findind it Will.
But heres the thing:
The pro Nigel said he hoped his faker would be a "life and soul of the party"
but Kevin was certainly not. We could all see that he was pretty shy.
Yet, with training he completely fooled all 3 judges who admitted after the fact that they simply did not think he could have been the faker and were shocked that prior to the programme hah had no performance skills at all.
Even his mates said after the programme that he was now the life and soul of the party.
He walked away from a Phd to becoma a roving magician!!!
But for me the poignant part was at the very end when he said that if it weren't for the programme 'faking it' he'd be sitting at that desk right now and that it really wasn't for thim. I found this highly motivational in the context that: isn't it sad that we have to wait for a TV programme to save our lives. They're not going to come too often huh? The fact that the guy did what he did says for me that it was always there, inside him and all he had to do was (to quote William Clement Stone I believe) DO IT NOW! It reminds me that I'm just too old to be scared or worried anymore and that I quite enjoy taking life by the throat and being just a little bit crazy. I also ended up really happy for the guy.
And MP if your reading this did you notice that his trainer actually broke down in tears when his disciple won through? Now that's professionalism for me.

bobser
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briandavidphillips
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I just found this thread so excuse the late reply . . . if he has an entire month to prepare and if there are plenty of practice sessions available, I don't think it would be that much of a problem for someone to "fake" being a stage hypnotist . . . he may or may not come off as a "good" or "highly entertaining" stage performer but he could certainly pull off a basic outline to a show. If he's been practicing for a month, then he's not actually "faking" being a hypnotist, he IS a hypnotist, albeit inexperienced. Of course, a lot will depend upon how they setup the performance test. If it's a small intimate group he's working with then he might falter but if he's got an audience of at least one hundred sympathetic folks (not a raucous bar) then even the most inept hypnotist should be able to get the luck of the draw for some high responders to play a show with.

Being a seasoned professional stage hypnotist doesn't always mean being highly skilled or competent . . . one would expect it to be so but . . . I've seen some godawful shows performed by folks who've been doing this stuff for years - and not just a moonlighting hypnotherapist who does shows once in a blue moon but by folks who have been doing regular shows for years who are so locked into one outline or gag set that they can't step outside and react to anything beyond that set.

Go to youtube and you'll find plenty of awful examples.

I've seen newbies who are not very polished and I've seen naturals who "get" the ideas right away and have a feel for it at the get-go far beyond some of their peers who've been doing it for some time.

So . . . I think it's possible . . . it's NOT ideal. Certainly, the beginner should improve with practice over time and more experience will make them better . . . but the rudiments of a show outline and patter is not rocket science. Heck, my impression from the description is that the "faking it" show assign a mentor so a tutor in stage hypnosis should be able to shake out some of the confidence issues (we are talking about HYPNOSIS) and do some modeling work and the like to give a short term edge.

In my opinion.
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WillBox
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Hi briandavidphillips and welcome to the forum. I remember seeing a lot of your work a while back, don't you train in an eastern country? And you did lots of street work e.g. the arm pull inductions? I can't remember the details but I do remember thinking you were a good guy.
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