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Chris K Inner circle 2544 Posts |
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On 2008-06-04 10:03, Josho wrote: I've seen review after review that gives an effect 10/10. When I personally ask if they have actually performed it for people, most of the time, people say no. As far as I am concerned, and this is from years of experience, most performers don't "know" what is good until after a few performances for people. As such, I give absolutely zero respect for reviews in which the material has not been tried. It's completely and artificially irrelevant. As such, for positive OR negative reviews, I, personally, like to see experience with the effects. I guess that makes me "slightly contradictory". Lem |
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Josho Special user Albany, New York 758 Posts |
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On 2008-06-04 11:58, Lemniscate wrote: Actually, that does NOT make you slightly contradictory. It makes you even-handed and fair, since you're insisting that a review, whether positive or negative, is based on identical criteria: has the reviewer tried out the material? --Josh |
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Geoff Weber Inner circle Washington DC 1384 Posts |
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On 2008-06-04 10:55, Christopher Kavanagh wrote:Some people don't like the new Bill Malone DVD set. Know why? THEY DIDN'T THINK THE AUDIENCE LIKED THE TRICKS. If the studio audience doesn't like the tricks when its being performed by a master, one of two things is wrong... either the audience is jaded towards magic / in a bad mood, or the material is not that great to begin with. If the poor studio reaction then colors the dvd viewers experience, that is certainly understandable. I think it is a very valid filtering criterion to only bother to learn material that you find personally impressive, or you have seen impresses other people. Encountering jaded or unenthusiastic magic audiences is a real world situation, but why should we have to suffer through it on a dvd, for all we know they are simply giving normal reactions to lackluster material... There's far too much out there, and far too little time to waste on learning material that might be below par. I'm not saying Bill Malone dvds or Bob Sheets dvds are bad or good (I haven't seen them), I'm just saying they are not doing anybody any favors by allowing dull audience reactions to reflect on their performances |
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Tom G Inner circle 2895 Posts |
I do understand what you're saying Lem. When glowing reviews are put out a day or even a week after something is released makes you wonder how good something is. Or even the dreaded I received it yesterday and added it to my set tonight...
At the same time someone not taken by something, even if they did learn it wouldn't have the passion for it and it would still get a negative review. Magic is a lot like music, if you are asked to learn a piece you have no emotional ties to it just won't sound good... As for reviews, some because of who it is I ignore. But I'll average them out, I don't believe that everything put out needs a fair shake as there's a lot of crap being put out. And a lot of renamed classics. People are really good at advertising hype now and could sell anything. I once questioned a "pro" on a line of his that was used to promote a product and he confessed he hadn't seen the product and his line was used somewhat out of context based on a written description of the effect. So, with that, I don't put a lot of stock in accolades by well known pros either. |
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Josho Special user Albany, New York 758 Posts |
Chris,
I have an answer partly formulated -- which is, essentially, that I think your criteria would leave one hard-pressed to give a negative review to ANY DVD produced by an experienced, proven magician (since the quality of the performance itself seems to be immaterial if you independently KNOW that the magician has his chops, and given the fact that even lackluster material can be turned into something terrific in the right hands). But instead, could you point me to some of the negative reviews you've given to DVDs or tapes produced by good, well-known magicians? That might help me better understand your criteria. --Josh |
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Review King Eternal Order 14446 Posts |
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On 2008-06-04 12:58, Josho wrote: Henry Evans More Than An Illusion set. I HATED them. And...caught heat from "some" people for it. Josh, I'm ok with people not liking a DVD because they think the audience was dull and not into it and so it made the DVD boring to watch. But if they say such and such effect isn't very good because the audience didn't react to it, then it becomes open to debate about the effect(s) in question. Then the debate moes to what you want out of a DVD. I'm sure we'd all love killer performances of "real world" effects that have the audience laughing and screaming. I know I'd like that. In the end though, what I really want is to be able to learn something(s)that I can add to what I do. Maybe a move, a better handling, an entire effect, etc. Things that make me think and improve.
"Of all words of tongue and pen,
the saddest are, "It might have been" ..........John Greenleaf Whittier |
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Domino Magic Special user 999 Posts |
With any set of DVDs, what your expectation of the set is before you watch them will impact how you feel about it. With this set I was expecting "funny, wacky Bob" and even Doc Eason admitted, you're not going to get that with these.
That was my first let down. My second was what I was expecting based on the product copy: Each DVD contains one “ACT”. Each act is built on three dynamite routines that will play well in any close-up situation from strolling during cocktails to table-hopping to formal close-up.With all three acts in his pockets, Bob can go from group to group without repeating a routine until he gets to the fourth group—yet each group gets to see a complete show. Someone in another thread pointed this out as well. My expectation of an "act" is a series of effects performed together, showing transitions between each effect. This set didn't do that either. The effects did not flow together as I was expecting. Finally I was disappointed with much of the material. Again it comes down to expectations. I had heard about Bob's bunny routine and didn't see anything noteworthy about it and in fact is very similar to the routine I've been doing for over 20 years. Marked is a great effect, but I felt Bob's additions distracted from it, such as the way he displayed the blue backs at the beginning. Doc's handling of Silver, Copper, Brass is not only funnier than Bob's, but the effect is more amazing. And several of the card routines, to me, were just confusing. Confusing to the point I had to watch them a second time to understand what the effect actually was. Not to take anything away from either of the Bob's. They're both nice guys who put out quality products. It's just that my personal expectation of this set was not met. |
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doug brewer V.I.P. 1142 Posts |
I'll add this comment about quiet spectators - sometimes there's absolutely nothing you can do and it has nothing to do with the material. Dan Watkin's suffered from (I think) a very reserved audience on his DVD and I know for a fact his material is very strong and commercial magic. On my last DVDs I had a young 20 year old girl, beautiful, and a (no-kidding) rodeo star who outside of the camera glare, is a typical, funny (loud) young person. But to my utter surprise she was VERY camera shy. No amount of re-takes would fix this, so we just plowed through. I think it turned out ok, but you just never know how your audience is going to be until you're in the mix, so to speak.
I have watched all 3 DVDs and have purchased one (the one with the coin trick Triple Transpo, of course). I have also performed this a number of nights exactly as taught by Bob to give it a fair shake. My take on it is that it is not perfect, but a good routine. The initial switchout (half dollar for gimmick) is a complete fooler and flies right by your audience. The initial transpo . . . is not. I actually got busted a number of times right at this point (they touched, handled or poked the purse sitting on the table and found the extra coins). Unfortunately there is no "out" at this point - it's curtains - and this did not make me happy. I recommend pocketing the purse (I think Bob mentions in the explanation that this is an option). I will say that his un-nesting move of the gimmick, when it turns from a half dollar into the foreign coins, is brilliant, easy and something I adapted right away into my CSB routine. I plan on trying out the Gotcha routine too, but just haven't had a chance yet. |
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Review King Eternal Order 14446 Posts |
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On 2008-06-04 13:32, Domino Magic wrote: I find no fault in what you have said. You expected some things and the DVD's didn't fit your criteria. I already have a strolling set, so what I wanted was to get some ideas from a working professional that I could use to improve what I do. My expectations were met and exceeded as I got some ideas and have added routines ( I never expect that because it takes allot for me to drop one thing I do and add another ).
"Of all words of tongue and pen,
the saddest are, "It might have been" ..........John Greenleaf Whittier |
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sethb Inner circle The Jersey Shore 2719 Posts |
I purchased Volumes 1 & 2 of the Sheets DVD's and thought they were good -- simply because of the prop handling, which I thought was valuable and worth incorporating into my routines. I am specifically referring to the retention-style vanish of the Multiplying Rabbits on Volume 1, and the handling/routining of the CSB gimmick on Volume 2. So I felt I got my money's worth.
On the other hand, since I'm not Mr. Sheets, I completely discounted his Multiplying Rabbits patter and presentation. I'm sure it was appropriate for his personality and his performing venues, although for me it would be totally inappropriate. I would even question one or two of his remarks in ANY venue (specifically the one about it being a very "Catholic" trick). If we are supposed to be entertaining people, why even risk the possibility of offending or embarrasing someone? But that's my personal opinion, and no, I'm not even Catholic! I also paid no attention to Bob's CSB patter, as I will need to create my own anyway. But I did feel that his was pretty banal, consisting mostly of the usual "now-it's-here, now-it's-there, now-it's-here-again" running description of what the specs can already see for themselves. I'm not saying the trick needs some long drawn-out tale about Chinese emperors, shipwrecks and ancient brass coins. But it should have some basic window dressing, otherwise it's just a puzzle and not a magic trick. It seemed as though Bob had worked so hard on the sleights, moves and the great routine, he felt nothing else was needed to put it over. That's certainly his call and as I said, it's fine with me because I'll be working out my own presentation (which he might not like either!) But I judged the DVD's solely on whether they contained anything new (to me) and worthwhile. I basically ignored his presentation and the audience reaction. And yes, I presently perform the Multiplying Rabbits, but not CSB, which I will be adding as time and practice permits. SETH
"Watch the Professor!!" -- Al Flosso (1895-1976)
"The better you are, the closer they watch" -- Darwin Ortiz, STRONG MAGIC |
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Richard Evans Inner circle 1379 Posts |
Thanks for that review, Ross. It was great to hear an honest opinion and not the typical over-hyped review.
The producers of DVDs are getting increasingly sloppy in their output. If the set is supposed to be representative of an act in hospitality, surely it would be reasonable to show the buyer the performer working in that environment. I thought that Bob Sheets' Shell Game DVD was great, but Skullcracker was a real let-down.
I have six locks on my door all in a row. When I go out, I only lock every other one. I figure no matter how long somebody stands there picking the locks, they are always locking three. Elayne Boosler
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Review King Eternal Order 14446 Posts |
I agree that it would be wonderful if the title of a DVD matched the performace. L&L did DVD's called " Restaurant Magic Of Dan Fleshman ". Well...Dan has performed this magic in restaurants, but it was filmed before an L&L audience.
Doc Eason's INCREDIBLE bar magic set was filmed live at The Tower and you got a feel for how this type of magic is performed ( and folks didn't always go along wth Doc and he had to "guide" them. It was a real lesson in audience management ).
"Of all words of tongue and pen,
the saddest are, "It might have been" ..........John Greenleaf Whittier |
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Domino Magic Special user 999 Posts |
As I previously posted that this set didn't meet my expectations, doesn't mean I don't like Sheets (so I hope my comments didn't mislead anyone). The shell game DVD he did with Whit was outstanding. It's The Rules was also excellent.
I also have to wonder how different this set would have been if Bob did it in front of an L&L audience. Doc was in his element doing his set for L&L. Bob was in Kohler's basement studio with 4 people. Probably not his ideal situation. Creating magic DVDs can't be easy and everyone comes to the party with their own set of criteria. John Mendoza's set was gold to me, yet many others didn't care for it. The videos Mike Skinner did for A1 years ago were great for me, even though he was in poor health. I had seen Skinner live many times before so was able to see past that. It's really just hard to say what is going to resonate with the majority of viewers and pull it off effectively. |
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Ross W Inner circle UK 1779 Posts |
This is turning into a bit of a can of worms, so I'll chip in again.
First off, let me reassure anyone, and Chris, that I wasn't at all offended by his response. We've exchanged PMs and all is most cordial. I don't have the time to respond to all of Chris's queries (I'm already late to meet a friend...) but in five mins, (and in no particular order) here goes. First, would I prefer the reactions to be faked? Well, I suppose not but I think there's a happy medium to be struck between the extremes Chris posits. OK, we all joke about the hyoer L&L audiences, but jeez - at least they APPLAUD and LAUGH. The most anyone does on Sheets's DVD's is raise an eyebrow if he's lucky. It's just dull and makes him look dull. And re-shoot to make an effect clearer, say when someone chooses a card too close to the "wrong" card? Most certainly. I paid twenty quid for that DVD and I expect clarity. The infelicities of the "real" world I get enough of when performing myself! If this had been a "live" session (i.e. with proper punters), I'd have overlooked this; in this situation it was the wrong - and dare I say lazy - choice. Second, should I perform an effect before deciding I don't like it? Don't be daft! Why on earth would I go to the trouble of learning a trick if I didn't like it in the first place? Flash Deck may fly with a breezy performance; I believe, though, that an intelligent 12 year-old could reverse-engineer its first two phases. Without wanting to expose too much, you offer ten cards and ask them to look at one of the four blacks. You then determine which one they're thinking of by asking two questions. Yes, it's better dressed up than that (obviously) but that is what it boils down to and it simply wouldn't get past a lot of the people I perform to. Chris and I have discussed Six Tricks In 2 Mins in PM. There are several reasons why this doesn't suit me, (quite apart from a d*** difficult colour change in the middle!) I suppose the question about my experience was to determine whether or not to take my review "seriously". Hmmm. Well, I'm not a pro; I'm a seasoned sometimes-paid amateur; you can tell by my pic that I'm not a kid! Why wasn't this shot in Sheets's preferred milieu? I think I know: it would have been much, much harder and more expensive. That's all. I wonder if Bob Sheets is pleased with the result? |
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silverking Inner circle 4574 Posts |
Not directly related to Ross's post above, but more the thread in general, ......sometimes there's more information to be had in a question than there is in the answer.
Just reading questions (sans answers) offers folks the opportunity to think how they might answer, and if the questions are important in the first place. |
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Review King Eternal Order 14446 Posts |
I think the discussion has been helpful and we've all had good input.
Well..I watched all 3 DVD's again today ( travelling around with a laptop can be fun ).. The audience does in fact laugh and applaud. L&L has about 50 people in the audience ( maybe more ). People in the back that can't even see what's going on are applauding.
"Of all words of tongue and pen,
the saddest are, "It might have been" ..........John Greenleaf Whittier |
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giobbi1 Loyal user 252 Posts |
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On 2008-06-04 11:03, Christopher Kavanagh wrote: The one that sticks out Christopher was a routine for Cube Libra (sp?). That can be a very boring trick and he made it absolutely stellar. Most of it was stand up. I have also seen clips of him doing street performing and thought he was very entertaining. These 9 routines just didn't do it for me. Bear in mind, I really like Bon as a person. He spent quite a bit of time in my room at this years Magi-Fest. Ate some food and had something to drink and was as nice a guy as you'd ever meet so it's not that I don't like him or have never seen him really work a room. |
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emyers99 Inner circle Columbus, Ohio 4746 Posts |
I've been out of town for a while but couldn't resist taking a look at this thread. I have to say that I disagree with Christopher's approach on this one. I've seen this approach in other threads but haven't chimed in when I probably should have. I think all opinions have value as long as the reasons for the opinion are explained. It shouldn't matter if someone has 9000 posts or performs full time or semi-pro.
I've been around for a long time and have always liked Bob. He's one of the best with the shell game. He's also very entertaining in performance and lecture settings. But I recently saw him lecture on the Hospitality material and, to be honest, I was not overly impressed with the material. I thought the card material was a little too drawn out and could sometimes be confusing to follow. I felt the three ball routine was way too confusing for a lay audience to follow. And I really didn't think the CSB routine improved upon the Eason or Fisher routines. So MY opinion of the material is that I probably won't use it. It just doesn't fit my needs. Now does that mean the material is bad? Of course not. Someone else might see it and love it. Bob certainly does and it shows in his live performances. That's the beauty of magic and without these differences, we'd all be performing the same stuff. So what is my point in all this? Opinions like "this sucks" probably deserve some questioning, but Ross did a thorough review that raised legitimate concerns (many of which I personally agree with). I think many people will get value from it. I also think others probably had similar opinions but were afraid to post because they were afraid of being attacked or interrogated. That shouldn't be the case if we are really trying to help each other become better magicians. |
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Review King Eternal Order 14446 Posts |
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On 2008-06-04 22:48, emyers99 wrote: Ross titled this thread "Bob Sheets Does Hospitality: An Alternative Review" and only has one DVD. lol. On that, his main issue was the audience. I don't consdier that an alternative review. It's an opinion of one DVD from a set. People don't post because they're afraid of being attacked? When I don't like things I get all sorts of PM's saying I'm an idiot, etc. lol. It's never stopped me from stating my opinion. Why would anyone be afraid of anything on a message board? We're all a bunch of hacks and geeks. That's why we're here. I'd like someone that doesn't like the set to learn "6 tricks in 2 minutes" and perform it. I bet they fall in love with it.
"Of all words of tongue and pen,
the saddest are, "It might have been" ..........John Greenleaf Whittier |
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MagicAggie Regular user 124 Posts |
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On 2008-06-04 23:14, Christopher Kavanagh wrote: This is the only thing I'll ever agree with him on. There is absolutely NOTHING this guy won't post about. He knows most everything and is more than happy to let you know. He posted his opinion about the DVD and it was different than your opinion. And now he's expected to justify, in your mind, why he feels that way? Wow. |
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