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Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On 2008-10-18 03:23, Payne wrote:
Quote:
On 2008-10-17 22:22, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Quote:
On 2008-10-17 22:13, Dannydoyle wrote:
Payne, yep, and what about my sister? LOL.


Yeah Payne, what about his sister?


If he wants her back he's going to just have to pony up that ransom.

I hope it's soon as my wife will be back from vacation Sunday and it's going to be tough to explain why I've got someone duct taped to a chair in the basement.


Don't you think 12 bucks is a lot in this economy?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Payne
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Quote:

The nature of faith is that it exists without evidence. I don't have a problem with that as long as someone doesn't use it to screw up their (or usually) somone ELSE'S lives!



I agree. Simply because I don't seem to posess the attribute known as faith doesn't mean that I can't see the good (and harm) it does for people.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
Payne
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Quote:
On 2008-10-18 10:36, Terry Holley wrote:

So Payne, please tell us very specifically what the "sufficient evidence" would be.

Terry


It knows percisely what "specific evidence" I require. So far it has yet to manifest it for me. If it can't be bothered to perform this one simple task I see little reason to start accepting its existence simply on faith alone.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
MAKMagic
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I got banned for one of my
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Quote:
On 2008-10-18 11:31, Dannydoyle wrote:
Quote:
On 2008-10-18 03:23, Payne wrote:
Quote:
On 2008-10-17 22:22, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Quote:
On 2008-10-17 22:13, Dannydoyle wrote:
Payne, yep, and what about my sister? LOL.


Yeah Payne, what about his sister?


If he wants her back he's going to just have to pony up that ransom.

I hope it's soon as my wife will be back from vacation Sunday and it's going to be tough to explain why I've got someone duct taped to a chair in the basement.


Don't you think 12 bucks is a lot in this economy?


LOL
.:Michael Kelley
<BR>www.RandomActsofEntertainment.com
On the Level, By the Square
Terry Holley
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Quote:
On 2008-10-18 12:00, Payne wrote:
Quote:
On 2008-10-18 10:36, Terry Holley wrote:

So Payne, please tell us very specifically what the "sufficient evidence" would be.

Terry


It knows percisely what "specific evidence" I require. So far it has yet to manifest it for me. If it can't be bothered to perform this one simple task I see little reason to start accepting its existence simply on faith alone.


It sounds like you are stating that old idea of, "If there is a God, then show yourself to me by _________ ______ ________ (fill in the blanks).

So if I say something like, "If there is a God, then show yourself to me by letting me win the lottery," and I win it, then you would agree that I have just come across sufficient evidence that God exists (at least for me), would you not?

Sounds pretty subjective to me and hard for me to believe you would set something like that up as your sufficient evidence.

Terry
Co-author with illusionist Andre' Kole of "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena."
Magnus Eisengrim
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Quote:
On 2008-10-18 10:36, Terry Holley wrote:


So Payne, please tell us very specifically what the "sufficient evidence" would be.

Terry


This the sort of willful ignorance that makes these discussions so frustrating. Did Payne say that there was one ([b}the[/b] piece of evidence that was required?

More to the point, a modest amount of reflection will indicate that the evidence required for convincing is different in different cases. Evidence of the Pythagorean Theorem is very difference from the evidence that cholera is caused by a bacterium. Evidence for the existence of Zeus, Yahweh or Allah is likely different from either of these cases. The thing is, we can only evaluate evidence after it is presented.

A better question would be: What evidence convinces you that any particular god or gods exist? Perhaps that evidence is convincing; perhaps not.

John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
Terry Holley
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Quote:
On 2008-10-18 13:14, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Quote:
On 2008-10-18 10:36, Terry Holley wrote:


So Payne, please tell us very specifically what the "sufficient evidence" would be.

Terry


This the sort of willful ignorance that makes these discussions so frustrating. Did Payne say that there was one ([b}the[/b] piece of evidence that was required?

More to the point, a modest amount of reflection will indicate that the evidence required for convincing is different in different cases. Evidence of the Pythagorean Theorem is very difference from the evidence that cholera is caused by a bacterium. Evidence for the existence of Zeus, Yahweh or Allah is likely different from either of these cases. The thing is, we can only evaluate evidence after it is presented.

A better question would be: What evidence convinces you that any particular god or gods exist? Perhaps that evidence is convincing; perhaps not.

John


John:

Your responses to me in the old "Expelled" thread that was deleted were couched in the same verbiage ("willful ignorance", etc). Contrary to some of the posts here, I'm not convinced that thread was deleted because of "You know who." The thread was actually deleted shortly after some of your responses to me that were in the same vein as the one above.

I asked a question to Payne and I prefer to let Payne speak for himself. As we all know, he's very capable of it.

I'm very open to allow you to ask your own questions, but please don't attempt to rephrase mine.

Thank you,

Terry
Co-author with illusionist Andre' Kole of "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena."
Jonathan Townsend
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Ah yes, the magic words "willful ignorance" summon the demon "belicose" who posesses a Café member and gets them to type in text belligerent text. shame on you - get some exorcise.

now where were with Payne's sister and whether or not seeing the movie is worth 12 bucks?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On 2008-10-18 11:55, Payne wrote:
Quote:

The nature of faith is that it exists without evidence. I don't have a problem with that as long as someone doesn't use it to screw up their (or usually) somone ELSE'S lives!



I agree. Simply because I don't seem to posess the attribute known as faith doesn't mean that I can't see the good (and harm) it does for people.


See I see nothing at all wrong with this position in truth. You are right you do not posess the attribute named faith, BUT faith can move mountians, or it can alternativly move people to unspeakable acts. (I think that is the good and harm covered LOL)

You choose to put your faith elsewhere, and I fail to see why, at least in America, you should be forced to accept otherwise. (This comming from one of the "faithful")
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Magnus Eisengrim
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Quote:
On 2008-10-18 13:49, Terry Holley wrote:


Your responses to me in the old "Expelled" thread that was deleted were couched in the same verbiage ("willful ignorance", etc). Contrary to some of the posts here, I'm not convinced that thread was deleted because of "You know who."


Actually I don't remember who.

Quote:
The thread was actually deleted shortly after some of your responses to me that were in the same vein as the one above.


Ok. Can you bring forward an example?

Quote:
I asked a question to Payne and I prefer to let Payne speak for himself. As we all know, he's very capable of it.

I'm very open to allow you to ask your own questions, but please don't attempt to rephrase mine.

Thank you,

Terry


I certainly would not ever answer for someone else. My comment has only to do with your rhetoric. As a participant in the discussion, I believe that my responses to issues raised are as relevant as anyone else's.

Sorry you don't think that open responses are appropriate in an open forum.

John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
Payne
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Quote:
On 2008-10-18 12:54, Terry Holley wrote:

It sounds like you are stating that old idea of, "If there is a God, then show yourself to me by _________ ______ ________ (fill in the blanks).

So if I say something like, "If there is a God, then show yourself to me by letting me win the lottery," and I win it, then you would agree that I have just come across sufficient evidence that God exists (at least for me), would you not?

Sounds pretty subjective to me and hard for me to believe you would set something like that up as your sufficient evidence.

Terry


But I have no idea what would make me acquire such a faith and begin to believe in a deity. I really can't think of anything that could. However the force you have named God, if it is indeed "all knowing" knows precisely what it would take for me to accept its existence as fact. Since up to this point in time it has failed to present me with what ever it is that would give me even the slightest reason to believe in it I have to conclude that either it really doesn't care if I believe in it or not or more than likely it simply doesn't exist.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
Dannydoyle
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I thought the very idea of "free will" which is accepted by the religious, precludes you being forced into having faith right?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Jonathan Townsend
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Why yes DannyD... you have free will to accept any of the gods as creator - or any collection of them ... and no grounds what so ever to presume ill of anyone who chooses differently than you - presuming you choose freely and knowingly and not just as you were told... in which case you did not have or exercise free will now did you? hmmmm?

Don't fume so loudly - you might wake Cthuhlu.

Now how would one know if one had free will? Until we have a way to test for free will it may was well be "listening to the mini-spaghetti-monster-in-my-ear".

This was just my long playful way of getting us back to the basic issue - that in science you don't get to add stuff to the common model until you can reliably test for it's presence and absence and detect a difference between the two states. And that's a bare minimum condition.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Payne
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Quote:
On 2008-10-18 18:21, Dannydoyle wrote:
I thought the very idea of "free will" which is accepted by the religious, precludes you being forced into having faith right?


Try telling that to a Calvinist
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
ed rhodes
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Quote:
On 2008-10-18 18:15, Payne wrote:
Quote:
On 2008-10-18 12:54, Terry Holley wrote:

It sounds like you are stating that old idea of, "If there is a God, then show yourself to me by _________ ______ ________ (fill in the blanks).

So if I say something like, "If there is a God, then show yourself to me by letting me win the lottery," and I win it, then you would agree that I have just come across sufficient evidence that God exists (at least for me), would you not?

Sounds pretty subjective to me and hard for me to believe you would set something like that up as your sufficient evidence.

Terry


But I have no idea what would make me acquire such a faith and begin to believe in a deity. I really can't think of anything that could. However the force you have named God, if it is indeed "all knowing" knows precisely what it would take for me to accept its existence as fact. Since up to this point in time it has failed to present me with what ever it is that would give me even the slightest reason to believe in it I have to conclude that either it really doesn't care if I believe in it or not or more than likely it simply doesn't exist.


But! Since he seems to want to be accepted on faith, he's not going to provide any evidence that would be accepted without faith.

Harlan Ellison had a story that had nothing to do with religion. In it a character had to prove he was "mad" by performing five acts of madness or the committee judging him was going to have to kill him to protect their secret. He committs four and then sits in a pit he'd dug as the first act. The head of the group wants to know what the fifth act will be and the character responds;

"There isn't one. If I don't committ a fifth act of madness, you'll kill me so I'm just going to sit here. I think that should qualify as crazy even for you lunatics!"
"There's no time to lose," I heard her say.
"Catch your dreams before they slip away."
"Dying all the time, lose your dreams and you could lose your mind.
Ain't life unkind?"
Magnus Eisengrim
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Quote:
On 2008-10-18 18:47, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Why yes DannyD... you have free will to accept any of the gods as creator - or any collection of them ... and no grounds what so ever to presume ill of anyone who chooses differently than you - presuming you choose freely and knowingly and not just as you were told... in which case you did not have or exercise free will now did you? hmmmm?

Don't fume so loudly - you might wake Cthuhlu.

Now how would one know if one had free will? Until we have a way to test for free will it may was well be "listening to the mini-spaghetti-monster-in-my-ear".

This was just my long playful way of getting us back to the basic issue - that in science you don't get to add stuff to the common model until you can reliably test for it's presence and absence and detect a difference between the two states. And that's a bare minimum condition.




Jon, you've really become a lot more fun this last while. I greatly enjoy your posts.

John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
balducci
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Poor, poor Ben Stein. He's emphatically "NOT RICH" (his words). And, to add to his other woes, his friends on the right are now turning on him. See his latest column and (most importantly!) the comments that follow it:

http://spectator.org/archives/2012/12/05......xt-to-me

If anyone bothers to look at the link above, you may want to follow it up with these:

http://spectator.org/archives/2012/12/04/missing-in-action

http://spectator.org/archives/2012/11/26......-injusti

Summary: One of his closest friends was jailed for financial fraud (based on a court document I saw, Ben really sugar coats the extent of his friend's crimes), another is going senile (which is truly sad and can happen to any of us), and a third (who relied on the generosity of older men her entire life, i.e she got through life so far as a mistress) is (it seems) getting long in the tooth and finding it hard to compete against younger versions of herself.

Anyway, poor Ben. Remember him in your prayers.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
Kevin Connolly
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4 years to dig this thread up. Oofa!

Stamps are nice hobby too.
Please visit my website.
www.houdinihimself.com

Always looking buy or trade for original Houdini, Hardeen and escape artist items. I'm interested in books, pitchbooks and ephemera. Email [email]hhoudini@optonline.net[/email]
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