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Gerry Walkowski Inner circle 1450 Posts |
I just found it strange that this person called to tell me about it in somewhat of an apologetic way. This person admitted that it was my unveiling of this effect that made him realize what a great trick it was. I think in a way he was looking for my approval which was really awkward for me.
After this happened I couldn't look the person in the eye and again, I haven't seen this person now in well over a decade. Let me just end this by saying, I've moved on and it's possible the person who did this could now be deceased for all I know. I just thought it would make for an interesting discussion here on the MAGIC Café. Gerry |
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eSamuels Inner circle 3085 Posts |
My 2c on this.
First, the topic heading is interesting "Magicians Copying Your Tricks." As has been pointed out by several people, this is not quite accurate, as the other magician bought the same trick that you do as a signature piece. As you are not the creator of the piece, it's not "Your Trick." What is yours, is your presentation, and I have 2 suggestions here. First, if you are simply doing a series of 'tricks' in your act, 'the whole is not greater than the sum of its parts;' the whole in this case, being your act. But if you are a performer, bringing your personality to each effect (which I suspect you are), then the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. To this end, you should EXPECT that others will do the same effects you do, as it's almost inevitable, particularly if it's a strong effect. This also puts the owness on you to OWN the effect by your presentation. Two cooks given the same recipe, will undoubtedly come up with different end result. Two different theatre companies can both produce the same play......you get the point. One final point, if we only do tricks in our act, people will remember the tricks not (us) the performer. |
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gadfly3d Special user 963 Posts |
Maybe its just me but if someone copies something I am doing the only thing I worry about is are they doing it well.
Gil Scott |
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Potty the Pirate Inner circle 4632 Posts |
Well said Gil! And if they do it well, it's very flattering too! How can you be upset that someone went out and bought the same trick you did? Especially if you showed it to a roomful of magicians? the likelihood of a significant number of audience members seeing both performances is slim, and even if they do, hopefully you each have your own character, and will present the effect differently.
Take the Magic Drawing Board....most of the good entertainers in my area use this. But it doesn't mean that any of us should stop using it, as audiences love it; of course, presentations for this particular prop are widely different. When I "discover" a cool trick, I actually ENCOURAGE my local magician friends to go out and buy it if they like. It's no problem to me, and in reality, only a few guys do ever buy the same props. Not only that, when we get together, we share our routines and ideas, much like folks do on this forum. I believe a sharing attitude works far better, and it's the egotistical, selfish performer who wants to keep tricks all to himself. Just my 2c... ;) |
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magic4u02 Eternal Order Philadelphia, PA 15110 Posts |
Good stuff guys. I alos want to say a huge THANK YOU to Sytan who said it exactly what I have ben saying as well and did so elgantly. Thank you sir. The point here that I think people are finally understanding is that you can not stop anyone from purchasing a trick or effect. If the trick is made available to anyone to buy, then you do not OWN it as it is not YOUR trick. Does it make you mad or upset if someone else buys it and it was something you found.. well eyah but there is nothing wrong with that at all.
However, there is a HUGE difference if someone is copying or stealing youtr presentation of the effect. there in lies the difference. What you do with the trick and how you entertain with it is what makes you different and sets you apart. If someone steals that, then they are certainly wrong in their thinking. Kyle
Kyle Peron
http://www.kylekellymagic.com Entertainers Product Site http://kpmagicproducts.com Join Our Facebook Fan Page at http://facebook.com/perondesign |
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The Magic Ref Veteran user Flint, Mi. 302 Posts |
Ok, here is another perspective on this subject. I remember when I first started performing I was at a church event and they had a magician for the entertainment. I loved his show and went up to him afterwards and said something like I really enjoyed the way you performed ________ (fill in the blank). I asked him where could I get that prop, I would like to add it to my show. I had no idea at the time how rude it was to ask such a question, I considered it a form of flattery. So the point is, if someone ever copies something you do, the first question you need to do is ask how long they have been in the business. If it is a short time, you should take the time to explain this whole concept to them that we have a basic code that says you don't directly copy someone's work. I know this would have helped me quite a bit to learn this that day, instead all I recieved was a look of discust and a complete blow-off by this magician. He walked one way thinking to himself "What a jerk", and I walked the other way thinking "What a jerk". Bottom line is I didn't know any better, and he didn't know I didn't know any better. We all have our views on being a "Professional", I believe it is very professional to to have a discussion with anyone you think might be doing this to make sure they understand what they are doing. If they do already know then your conversation would be a very polite way to letting them know you don't appreciate them stealing your act. If they still continue to steal your act, then all gloves are off.
Mike
Be Young...Have Fun!
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Potty the Pirate Inner circle 4632 Posts |
Hmmm....I think that does depend on how involved your presentation is, and how unique. For instance, I have pirate presentations for many standard props. I guess it would miff me slightly if, for instance, someone in my area were to start to present "Passing Water" with my exact script and ideas. But in fact, the other performers who present this effect use very different ideas, so in my mind, it doesn't really matter.
Thinking further on this subject, it does occur to me that I've seen many "top international" performers presenting the same old effects - such as cards across, mental epic and the like, which even with an original take can somehow seem tired and hackneyed. I think at the heart of this debate is really another matter altogether - are you capable of coming up with several new routines every season, or do you rely on the same old tricks, gags, and bits of business year in year out? If so, then you'd probably be upset if someone stole one or more of your routines..... |
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Gerry Walkowski Inner circle 1450 Posts |
Let me frame this question another way.
Suppose you found a very old trick/act that absolutely no one else was doing within several hundred miles from where you lived. For now, I'll say it was an antiquated novelty act like SAND PAINTING. You do all the research and put this novelty act into your show and then someone else in your market sees you doing it and then they too start performing SAND PAINTING. Wouldn't you be miffed by this? I know I would. Gerry |
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magic4u02 Eternal Order Philadelphia, PA 15110 Posts |
Gerry,
This may sound weird to some but if this effect Sand Painting was a commercially available effect that could be bought by anyone, then no I would not be miffed by it. Even if the trick was kind of rare or forgotten it would not bother me. To me it is like buying a hammer. I may find a rare hammer that is just so cool and I buy one. Does that mean that Joe Schmo upon seeing my cool hammer shouldnot be allowed to buy one to? It is not the hammer itself that makes the work of art.It is what I do with that hammer that creates a fine peice of furntire etc. I see magic tricks and props the same way. However I would be upset if that same person stole my patter, presentation,music, movement etc. for any effect I bought. The reason is a simple one. The trick to me does not make for what I do. It is what I do with the trick and my own unique presentation that makes it entertainment. The trick is just a trick. It is just a prop and nothing more. I am what creates it into an entertaining experience for my audience. Just the way I see it and I know others may see things differently but that is fine as I think this discussion has been really great. Kyle
Kyle Peron
http://www.kylekellymagic.com Entertainers Product Site http://kpmagicproducts.com Join Our Facebook Fan Page at http://facebook.com/perondesign |
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sibbie Special user East Coast 525 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-06-29 20:48, Gerry Walkowski wrote: Would I be miffed? Probably. However, this person has every right to do so as long as the act or trick they are doing is publicly available. It is like if I would go out and purchase a 'show in a box' and perform it exactly the way the instructions say and then someone finds out this is what I have done and they go to the same thing. It may be irritating to me but they paid their money and have the right to use what they purchased just as I did. (Please no comments about how you should be original. This paragraph is just for example.) The only way to keep someone from doing a trick or routine that you do is to develop every effect and write every script yourself. And, even then, it isn't going to stop everyone but it will stop most. |
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The Magic Ref Veteran user Flint, Mi. 302 Posts |
I guess I was reading this as if someone were doing your "routine". Not just the same "Trick". Here is an example, a friend of mine took the Pot Hole Trick from Mike Close and changed it to a coke bottle and a "Fizz Bubble". It is the same trick but completely different presentation. I doubt he would care if I started performing "The Pot Hole Trick" during my walk around but I bet he would be more than miffed if I started performing his version of it with a coke bottle and fizz bubble just because I like his version better. Which I do by the way, but there is no way I should have the right to perform his version unless he released it in lecture notes or on a DVD or something.
Be Young...Have Fun!
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eSamuels Inner circle 3085 Posts |
This may sound harsh, but here goes.
If the 'trick' you are performing is not your own, and is available to others, there's no reason to be "miffed" if someone else sees you perform it, and decides to secure the rights/buy it/research it,.....in other words - perform it themselves. This is akin to being in a (here comes a bizarre reference) a Whitesnake cover-band and being miffed because another band watched you perform "Here I Go Again," and thought 'hey, that's a pretty good tune' and started performing it in their David Coverdale cover-band (see what I did there) (hmm, here's another thought; of course, if they were a David Coverdale cover band and weren't already performing one of his only hits, they probably have bigger issues to deal with)! Yes, I'm having a little poetic license here..... My point is, if someone rips off your presentational 'patter,' I can see how you would rightfully get a little ****ed off, as this IS actually YOUR creation. But the trick itself is not yours, even if it's been out of circulation for ions, and you reintroduced it to the world. As long as you continue to strive to be a better performer, learning new routines, and working to perfect the ones you continue to do, who really cares if someone tries to emulate you? Consider it flattery! “Life is pretty simple: You do some stuff. Most fails. Some works. You do more of what works. If it works big, others quickly copy it. Then you do something else. The trick is the doing something else.” - Tom Peters |
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Gerry Walkowski Inner circle 1450 Posts |
Well, I guess I live in a different magic world than most. Maybe I call it squatter's rights. If I found an off the wall magic trick that no one else had seen in years (it's no longer a commerically manufactured magic trick) and performed it and others in my home area then decided to look for it and add it to their shows, I personally would be offended by that.
Years ago Jim Steinmeyer unveiled several illusions that no one had seen or performed in many years. These were effects like the Million Dollar Mystery and the Mascot Moth Illusion. Doug Henning performed these tricks and out of respect to Doug and Jim, you didn't see other illusionists rushing out to perform these two stage illusions. Again, I view that as squatter's rights. Would it be stealing if others, back then, decided to perform these two stage illusions. Probably not, but I think many magicians would view that type of behavior as ethically wrong. I'm just giving you my personal view. I'm sure others may feel completely different about this. Perhaps this explains why I no longer perform for magicians. Gerry |
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gadfly3d Special user 963 Posts |
From a professional point of view consider this: most audiences never see another magician in a year or longer. So we have an odd perspective because we see many. I close my act with the linking rings and never hear from lay audiences that the trick is old. Unfortunately, the only time I tend to hear about other magicians from laymen is if they were bad.
Gil Scott |
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zimsalabim Special user Orlando Floirda USA 520 Posts |
Ok that's it I am taking every effect out of my act that I have seen done by somone else. I have seen the light.
Z
Joe Zimmer
"The Second Greatest Magician in the World" Who is the Greatest? Everybody else! Borrowed with respect from the late Great Eddie Fechter Owner of the Forks Hotel Zimsalabim Orlando Florida |
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Potty the Pirate Inner circle 4632 Posts |
Whereas others won't perform an effect unless they've seen someone else milking it......
;) |
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sibbie Special user East Coast 525 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-06-30 04:29, Gerry Walkowski wrote: I am not trying to start an argument but ethics do not really come into play if you are only speaking of the trick itself. The only unethical thing would be if I did not purchase the trick. Seriously, the real reason you probably didn't see others performing what Henning performed is not out of respect but because a vast majority of people already saw the illusion. Look at magic history in the 1800s and early 1900s and you will see many well-known magicians stealing tricks left and right and going to great lengths to do it. |
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richards New user Brian Richards 82 Posts |
I speak as an expert, since I once was the lead singer in a Whitesnake cover band. LOL!
If you find something old to put into your show that no other magician is currently performing, you probably found it from a book I am assuming. That book was written by another magician and therefore you are doing an effect that was created by another magician anyway. Is it OK in this case because they are dead? If that is the case, magicians will soon be calling hitmen to take out a few talented magicians. Yikes! I agree with some that we all should relax and focus on ourselves to be the best and most original that we can be. But...to go and mock a magician during his show because he apparently stole some material will only make the mocker look foolish! |
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TheAmbitiousCard Eternal Order Northern California 13425 Posts |
The more you become a "character" the less you can be ripped off.
All of us do the Egg Bag. But nobody can be Jeff Hobson. You just can't. Anyway, that's one solution. YOU are being hired. Not your tricks. another solution is to not perform your A material (or at all) at magic banquets. Another is to perform tricks that are difficult enough that nobody's going to put the time into them. That's Charlie Frye's advice. Of course, kid's magic is often less difficult to do technically and it's more about the lines and bits and gags you put into it to get the good reactions. If you're actaully entertaining you'll be getting the reactions another person just can't get even with a line-by-line gag-by-gag copy. You'll get the repeat bookings. They will not.
www.theambitiouscard.com Hand Crafted Magic
Trophy Husband, Father of the Year Candidate, Chippendale's Dancer applicant, Unofficial World Record Holder. |
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Gerry Walkowski Inner circle 1450 Posts |
Frank:
It's interesting that you bring that one point up. A good friend of mine does exactly what you said. Whenever magicians see him perform they never see his A show. His B show is great but his A show is beyond belief. |
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