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TheAmbitiousCard Eternal Order Northern California 13425 Posts |
....drives me nuts.
Why is it that of all the branches of magic, most coin magic patter reminds me of the word... "PATTER". To me, it sounds very contrived, scripted, forced, artificial, rehearsed, distracting, robotic, uninteresting, and it takes away from what would otherwise be a magical routine. Not helping is the fact that often some very magical things are happening yet the performer is standing stone-faced, reciting words as if he was reading from a teleprompter. I'm absolutely NOT saying that for a 3-fly routine we should call the coins "The butcher, the baker, and the candlestick maker". I think that's insulting unless you're performing 3-fly at a pre-school. I think one thing we can all agree on is that if an audience/spectator thinks you're "pattering" it's distracting, and takes away from the trick. Yes? I don't know what the answer is and, sadly, I've done nothing to help. On the other hand, John Bannon does a good job with stuff like this. I'm going to go re-read "Shanghai Surprise", et al.
www.theambitiouscard.com Hand Crafted Magic
Trophy Husband, Father of the Year Candidate, Chippendale's Dancer applicant, Unofficial World Record Holder. |
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Mb217 Inner circle 9520 Posts |
Interesting perspective. I guess there's no real need for patter in doing 3-Fly, it truly speaks for itself.
But in other effects, a storyline helps sometimes with the better visualization by the specs. For instance our Tim Feher here is a real master at using patter in his work, and there are others that do this well. But then there are those that go through the effects with little words if any. Perhaps they are more interested in the moves or the parts that amaze specs when a coin changes or disappears. I'm actually doing a little more scripting these days and it seems to be working pretty well. Good discussion.
*Check out my latest: Gifts From The Old Country: A Mini-Magic Book, MBs Mini-Lecture on Coin Magic, The MB Tanspo PLUS, MB's Morgan, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at gumroad.com/mb217magic
"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb |
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Owen Thomas Special user 504 Posts |
I totally agree here lol "here I have a hald dollar, and I put it in my right hand.....bla bla
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Kihei Regular user 137 Posts |
I have seen a great deal of what you describe. However, I don't think this is exclusive to coin magic. I think the problem arises when any performer uses speech as a distraction splitting the spectators attention from what they are doing and what they are saying. Spectators get frustrated with the performance and the magic is lost and effectively ignored. Kurtz describes this in in "Leading With Your Head".
I have seen several coin magicians that make effective use of speech in an entertaining fashion that compliments the magic. I think the key is to take your observations as that of any spectator we might approach. Assuming you are frustrating your audience and disecting the performance for problems will always be a good thing. Even the most seasoned magician (not me) has a spectators opinion regardless of their reference point. |
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Jimeh Inner circle Ottawa, Ontario 1399 Posts |
Words can kill ya or keep ya alive.
Bad patter like Frank and Owen decribes I think stems from nervousness and/or lack of creativity. It's either they're not creative enough to weave an interesting storyline (so they continually describe what they're doing instead) or they're nervous so the mindless speaking becomes a nice, safe crutch to lean on. The end result is the same. I never understood the whole 'Play-By-Play-Describing-Everything-I-Do' school of patter. It's like watching a sporting event on tv... |
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ppuna New user Thunder Bay Canada 19 Posts |
Larry Jennings used to label that "play-by-play" approach as "Magic for the blind"
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Jimeh Inner circle Ottawa, Ontario 1399 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-07-03 14:11, ppuna wrote: LOL! nice... |
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aqmagish20 Regular user 146 Posts |
MB, stay down the scripting path. I feel that 3 fly and other coin tricks, left to their own devices scram of, "look what I can do that you can't you stupid silly non-magician people" Scripting has worked well for me. Not to mention it can be made into an interesting 3-4 minute act rather than being a juggler, if you know what I mean.
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John T Cox Veteran user 385 Posts |
I have been reading McCabes Scripting Magic and studying this dilemma. I think that most magic patter is pretty awful. Words, actions, and sequence all ought to be motivated by something. Even if you have to resort to descriptive scripting, it could be as simple as "I found this cool coin that turns invisible if you rub it this way and reappears if you rub it that way. And the best thing about it is it changes color if you rub it around the edges." At least in that simple example there is a hook and a surprise.
The real magic is family!
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tedski Special user New Jersey 792 Posts |
I like what Curtis Kam has to say about three basic premises that can cover most routine construction. Can be found in his lecture notes Dangerous Notions.
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Curtis Kam V.I.P. same as you, plus 3 and enough to make 3498 Posts |
Now that Ted has mentioned it (thanks, Ted) the full essay about why there are only three ways to present coin magic, and what they are, is in Dangerous Notions. I've distilled the whole thing down to a bunch of do's and don'ts in The Pocketbook. Drop by http://www.ckhmagic.com if you want `em.
One of my "favorite" examples of "Magic for the Blind" is routines where the magician puts a coin in his pocket as part of the effect. As to presenting these, I say (in The Pocketbook): Quote:
...say "I'll put one away" or "I'll make this simpler" instead of "We put one of these three coins in my pocket, over here." Actors on stage simply declare, "I'm leaving", not "I'm going to go to that door, turn the knob, swing it open and go through the doorway." You might have noticed that I slipped in another pet peeve--the royal "We". Sorry, buddy, "We're" not putting that coin into your left pocket, "You" are. "We" don't even have any idea why you're doing it. And while I'm ranting, the next time you hear yourself saying "let's try that again" or "we'll try this a different way" remember that the textbook definition of boredom is answering questions that nobody asked. Does anyone actually want you to do it again?
Is THAT a PALMS OF STEEL 5 Banner I see? YARRRRGH! Please visit The Magic Bakery
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harris Inner circle Harris Deutsch 8812 Posts |
This nearly normal guy loves using the Royal "We" if it fits the occasion.
The Jenning's quoter reminded me of my early years working out of Reno..and meeting him up in a tavern near Lake Tahoe...Terry Lagerold..was very creative...Martin Lewis opening for Debbie Reynolds...Those were the days.. Sometimes I use my mosquito whistle for 3 fly..and end with 3 flies...fishing or rubber insects that is.... Still playing around with making the money talk...(vent) for some it is the "liquor talking"... with tongue somewhere near "our cheek"... Harris
Harris Deutsch aka dr laugh
drlaugh4u@gmail.com music, magic and marvelous toys http://magician.org/member/drlaugh4u |
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manal Inner circle York ,PA. 1412 Posts |
"Heres a coin, now it's gone, you're a jerk." Jerry Seinfeld
I know, someone here uses this as their signature. |
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feher Inner circle Michigan 1421 Posts |
I guess I'm boring.....rrrrrrrr
Everything you guys say you hate I do.....lol Tim
Mean people SUCK!!!!!!!
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MickeyPainless Inner circle California 6065 Posts |
Tim,
Your patter is some of the best I've ever heard! You're a story teller (Grandma's Purse) so don't change a thang my brutha! Mick |
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Simon Bakker Special user the Netherlands 587 Posts |
"And while I'm ranting, the next time you hear yourself saying "let's try that again" or "we'll try this a different way" remember that the textbook definition of boredom is answering questions that nobody asked. Does anyone actually want you to do it again."
I see your point. The examples you give, for instance, speek for themselves, they are quite boring. But, I don't think that "the definition of boredom is answering questions that nobody asked." In magical presentation I think questions that nobody asked, can be quite interesting, or evoke food for thought for the audience, and make an act more mystefying. I certainly don't have the age and life experience to be asking such thought provoking questions, but when I see a perfomer like Dan leFay; he makes an audience think about things they would probably never have thought of. I think that is a great experience. for me, his presentation trancends mere 'coin tricks' to an experience at an emotional level. A for the original post: I find this very interesting. I experience the same problem when presenting coin magic. For me personally, the coin magic that has made it into my regular repetoire has patter that constructed itself from experience. I tried several approaches and eventually came to know what an audience found cheesy and what they liked. Actually that's the main reason why, despite my love for coinmagic, I have only two pieces that I perform a lot (for lay audiences): I t takes a lot of time to find an interesting presentation for it. I hope to read some interesting thoughts in this thread. Regards Simon |
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Jaz Inner circle NJ, U.S. 6111 Posts |
Tim, I haven't seen you guide people thru your routine 'play by play' as described here.
What I have seen you do is create a story that guides them. There's a difference. |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Remember the joke about the three spies who were captured and sentenced to die ... by the professions of their fathers. One was a butcher's son, the other a candlemaker's son and the third a lollipop maker's son. Anyway while telling that story one could do the VCA and have the last coin change into a lollipop and give it away.
Just a thought.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Curtis Kam V.I.P. same as you, plus 3 and enough to make 3498 Posts |
Jon, would that be a trick with a Sucker ending?
Is THAT a PALMS OF STEEL 5 Banner I see? YARRRRGH! Please visit The Magic Bakery
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holo New user 64 Posts |
I agree, its very hard to add much of a storyline while performing coins unlike cards where you can talk to them more. generally if I pulled out a coin at a gig, they stared at my hands, I amazed them, and then we talked for 20 mins.
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