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dcoins New user 20 Posts |
Do you think there is one main reason for not getting the proper "burn" from a retention vanish or is more likely a combination of things. I am having a difficult time correcting my rv although I do know that it isn't up to par. I am currently studying Larry Barnowsky's urv and also spending time studying the Roth RV.
Just curious what you all think. Thanks in advance. D |
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Jaz Inner circle NJ, U.S. 6111 Posts |
Timing is quite important.
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Jimeh Inner circle Ottawa, Ontario 1399 Posts |
I agree with Jaz. Speaking from my experience, it was all about the timing
(or lack of it). It was knowing when to close the receiving hand to create that burn. If you're looking for visual inspiration also check out (if you haven't already) The Boss and Mickey Silver's RV http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuqarIAiDcU http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnbDnQJbYJA |
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The Amazing Noobini Inner circle Oslo, Norway 1658 Posts |
I've been struggling with various RVs for a looong time now. I have practiced a lot of them and none of them are the least bit impressive in my hands. So far.
I think a major problem with some of the better known techniques is that the vanishes demand an extra delaying move compared to what you would need to fairly put the coin in your hand. What I mean is that if you compare it to say a Classic Vanish, or a TP Vanish, there is an extra step after the coin is seen to be put into the hand. This I think is why so much practice time is needed. This extra step needs to become so quick, subtle and fluid that it is invisible compared to the persistence of retinal impression of the shiny moving coin. If I am to point to one major obstacle then I think that could be it. Anyway I didn't think of that first. I think Al Schneider did. There are a few different concept retention vanishes that are more direct. No extra step. But they may not be practical for other reasons, such as where the coin ends up being. I have one very impressive vanish in mind in particular when I say that. Subtle hand differences may also require adjustments from what you learn in order to work with your fingers. For instance the length ratio between the first three fingers is very different from person to person. Your coin may not end up in exactly the same place as it does in David Roth's hand. I now find that my vanish looks better if I only grab the coin with my third finger. However the second one has to stretch a little too in order to bridge the discrepancy between the first and third finger. This also has something to do with my huge windows through which the coin will flash if there is a light from above/behind me. You will probably need to discover similar adjustments that work for you. I actually reached a technique I think might possibly work for me only the day before yesterday. After months of trial and error. Now I need to do it slowly again and again for a long time before I can get it to run automatically and smoothly and judge in the mirror if I'm really finally on the right track.
"Talk about melodrama... and being born in the wrong part of the world." (Raf Robert)
"You, my friend, have a lot to learn." (S. Youell) "Nonsensical Raving of a lunatic mind..." (Larry) |
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Michael Rubinstein V.I.P. 4665 Posts |
So many retention vanishes out there, you need to find the best one for you. Check out the several methods on the Encyclopedia of Coin Sleights DVD, as there are several methods. Or, see Gallo's and Roth's on the New York Coin Magic Seminar DVD series. Also taught is the R.O.P.S. technique.
S.E.M. (The Sun, the Moon, and the Earth) is a sun and moon routine unlike any other. Limited to 100 sets, here is the promo:
https://youtu.be/aFuAWCNEuOI?si=ZdDUNV8lUPWvtOcL $325 ppd USA (Shipping extra outside of USA). If interested, shoot me an email for ordering information at rubinsteindvm@aol.com |
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Larry Barnowsky Inner circle Cooperstown, NY where bats are made from 4770 Posts |
Some easy things to help get a better retention of vision:
1. Use as large a coin that you can handle 2. Use a shiny coin. It will reflect more light and contribute to a better "burn". Do the move in good light. The stronger the ambient light intensity the better will be the burn. 3. Slow down as you place the coin in the hand and don't close the receiving hand too quickly. 4. Show as much of the coin as possible. Try to hold it near the tips of the fingers so there is more surface area showing. 5. Make sure your mechanics are correct. Go back and read again the description of the retention vanish you are attempting. |
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solidimageartsllc Regular user Los Angeles 176 Posts |
Larry's version (refined by Rannie when I met with him) is the one that works the best for me. I personally found that larger coins gave the most control and helped me to sharpen my skills immensely. Good luck! -Dan
Take infinite pain to make something look effortless - Michelangelo
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Mb217 Inner circle 9520 Posts |
I agree with Larry here. The RV is a lot more self working than is said. Once you get that coin into the hand and remove the other hand, it is gone mostly because of the mind. The mechanical parts aren't difficult, depending on which one you do, but once you get it down it sorta works itself if you don't mess it up and let it do what it do.
*Check out my latest: Gifts From The Old Country: A Mini-Magic Book, MBs Mini-Lecture on Coin Magic, The MB Tanspo PLUS, MB's Morgan, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at gumroad.com/mb217magic
"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb |
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Joshua Barrett Inner circle Cincinnati, Ohio 3631 Posts |
I use mike's method the most.
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errolbacalzo New user 78 Posts |
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Jeff O Loyal user 274 Posts |
Errolbacalzo, That looks like Larry's.
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rannie Inner circle 4375 Posts |
I totally forgot about that video. That was me Jeff. I do have Larry's book which he generously gave me. I have been doing this type of vanish even before I saw Larry's. Larry does an incredible Retention and although our ROV looks the same... I can tell you that my mechanics is different from Larry's. I think the best ROV is the one that works for you. In my honest opinion the best is still Mickey's. The most convincing is Roth's especially live. What makes the vanish convincing more than the burn is the timing and the casualness of placing the coin on the other hand. The hidden or the subtle reason doing so justifies the need to transfer the coin as well.
Anyway here is another ROV that I do... http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=1nSIoZkDbGA I was once castigated for calling it my ROV in the past and was accused of stealing it from Ramsey. Well.... I didn't and stealing ain't my cup of coffee. I later read Ramsey and saw a footage of the master, and though the mechanics are similar....the angling and the trigger is somewhat different. It looks pretty but I myself find my ROV unnatural. I still prefer an innocent ROV or even a false take. Rannie
"If you can't teach an old dog new tricks, trick the old dog to learn."
-Rannie Raymundo- aka The Boss aka The Manila Enforcer www.rannieraymundo.com www.tapm.proboards80.net |
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Mb217 Inner circle 9520 Posts |
I agree with my good friend Rannie here as to motivation. I think that after you get the RV down well, it's all about what you do with it. I have seen no one do with it what Mickey Silver can do with it. To me, it's the difference between watching a good can of paint and then watching a house magnificently painted with it.
Hey errol, behold and grow, as there are many levels to the journey... http://youtube.com/watch?v=YnbDnQJbYJA
*Check out my latest: Gifts From The Old Country: A Mini-Magic Book, MBs Mini-Lecture on Coin Magic, The MB Tanspo PLUS, MB's Morgan, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at gumroad.com/mb217magic
"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb |
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vinsmagic Eternal Order sleeping with the fishes... 10957 Posts |
Mickey is the most unique coin worker today
\ vinny |
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Jaz Inner circle NJ, U.S. 6111 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-07-10 19:01, The Amazing Noobini wrote: I'm curious. What do you mean by an "extra delayed move"? Are you talking about the split second that they need to see the coin go into your hand, the burn? |
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The Amazing Noobini Inner circle Oslo, Norway 1658 Posts |
I should probably have said an extra delaying move and not "delayed". I usually make an effort to appear as confusing as possible.
What I mean is that if you first put the coin fairly into your hand using a similar type of movement as the Retention Vanish endeavors to emulate and then do the actual vanish, the vanish has one more step to it; depending on which version you are following, there will be either an extension of one or two fingers followed by maybe a slight twist of the hand and then a curling in of certain fingers. Or similar. This is an additional step compared to putting the coin fairly into the hand. I think that getting these additional adjustments to cause no visible time delay or hesitation, to make them so smooth as to appear invisible, is one reason why the vanish will not "work" properly on the spectator until this step is well practiced and quick enough to be hidden behind the larger motions. This is what I badly tried to articulate earlier. Since the original question was if anyone thinks "there is one main reason for not getting the proper "burn" from a retention vanish". This thought about the extra step does not apply to the Mickey Silver-style vanish, for lack of a better and non-exposing term, and other vanishes that use different concepts. I'm talking about the Retention Vanish as described for instance in Expert Coin Magic (first effect in the book). So I hope this made more sense now. Probably not.
"Talk about melodrama... and being born in the wrong part of the world." (Raf Robert)
"You, my friend, have a lot to learn." (S. Youell) "Nonsensical Raving of a lunatic mind..." (Larry) |
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magicbob116 Inner circle 1522 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-07-10 20:07, Larry Barnowsky wrote: All good pieces of advice! For me, I learned a long time ago that #3 and #4 drastically improved my ROV vanish. I had a tendency to rush it, but when I learned to take my time, the "burn" was much stronger. And also not to cover the coin with the fingers but getting it out at the fingertips as Larry stated. More of the coin showing = more "burn."
B. Robert Pulver
The "I Hate Card Tricks!" Book of Card Tricks Vol. 1, 2, and 3 Kards for Kids Sticky Situations Sleightly Wacky http://www.magicnook.com/magicbob |
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Jaz Inner circle NJ, U.S. 6111 Posts |
Thanks Noob,
I see now. |
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Mb217 Inner circle 9520 Posts |
I neglected to mention the Godfather's "Rice Krispies" Vanish, great burn on that thing and it really snap, krackles and pops. It's a very effective RV and you should take a look at it. Just PM Vinny for a peek.
Oh, and I remember once Mickey Silver was showing his work with his vanish (SUV), and I was amazed at how he could get right up close on you (even closer) and do this thing slow (and even slower) and the coin just vanished. Some here might remember a video he sent around where he demonstrated this over and over again, basically to show how it didn't matter how close or how slow he did it, that it was just as effective. Amazing!
*Check out my latest: Gifts From The Old Country: A Mini-Magic Book, MBs Mini-Lecture on Coin Magic, The MB Tanspo PLUS, MB's Morgan, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at gumroad.com/mb217magic
"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb |
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MickeyPainless Inner circle California 6065 Posts |
If you've ever seen the burn Vinny gets with his Crimp technique you'd swear the coin did just he wants you to think even if you KNOW better!
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