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Donnie Buckley
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Net of Magic. Wonders and Deceptions in India is considered to be a scholarly work on the subject, not a novel. Admittedly, it contains some fictional characters, but as I read it, and as it was presented, I assumed it was all based upon the author's actual observations and experience.
I just wonder if Seigel got it right, or did his own perspective skew the subject?
It is a terrific book, but is it an accurate representation of life in a Maslet family?
Learn the form, but seek the formless. Learn it all, then forget it all. Learn the way, then find your own way. Rings-N-Things
Pete Biro
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OK, HERE I AM... but have not had the opportunity to view the videos referenced above. Will do so.

Enjoyed looking at the videos. My current problem is arthritis. I can no longer do the classic Indian Load of a ball under the cup, having had surgery on both hands... So, I use Indian Cups but more of a Western Routine. Sitting cross-legged on the floor is something else I can no longer do. I have put together a book covering the subject, and will soon release it in print form. If you PM me, I might be able to send a PDF file of the draft of the book. Don't ask if you are none of the above posters. Thanks. Smile
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
RiffRaff
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Quote:
On 2009-11-05 12:09, Bill Palmer wrote:
Penn and Teller did a video a while back in which they showed part of a performance by a fellow who claimed to be a descendant of Luxor Galli Galli...


The video is "Penn & Teller's Magic & Mystery Tour". It also features Dr. Siegel mentioned above.
sherifmayika
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As far as I know, books and videos available on this topic are:
Biro, Pete - The Hindu Cups and Balls
Joseph, Eddie - The Hindu Cups
Branson, L.H. - Indian Conjuring
Hotz, Edwin - The East Indian Cups and Balls
Ilange, P.K. - Indian Cups and Balls
Joseph, Eddie - Indian Cups and Balls
Miller, Charlie - The Indian Cups and Balls
Rink - The Indian Cups and Balls
Sorcar, P.C. - Indian Magic
Stanyon, Ellis - The Indian Cups and Balls
Bamberg, Theo - Indian Conjuring; The Cups and Balls
Steve Dacri - No Filler Vol. 2 (DVD)

And now I add 'Net of Magic, Wonders and Deceptions in India' to this list. Thanks to DDecae. I did not see this book, but I want.

The above said YouTube videos are not complete routine. The listed books and Steve Dacri video cover only the basics of the I C&B.

Today I spoke to magician Nanu, the only magician alive who knows the complete routine. He said original cups and ball routine involves 64 moves. Performance involves a beautiful patter and presentation. The duration is 20-30 minutes. He adds, "what is popular among magicians is that I cut shoted the routine for closeup competition to 8 minutes. that is what Prahlada acharya and Sankar Jr. performs." About the spin vanish and strike vanish he said, "both has a Indian origin and is a little different from western style. for example after both the style of vanish I can show both hands empty."
Yes, in Indian style there are a half dozen techniques to show both hands empty after ball vanish.
In my observation, the new generation have western touch (especially Prahlad acharya).
I know some magicians in India, they produce water, rice, cons, etc., at the climax. There is another interesting move. At the beginning, magician shows five cups and says, "I use only 3 cups now," and keeps two cups away and starts performance with three cups. In between the performance, he swaps these two cups with two of the cups he is using. It will remind you of Tommy wonder loading methods.
I have been collecting all the information available. One they will be packaged in a DVD.

Pete Biro,
Thanks for the PDF offer. I have PMed you.
Bill Palmer
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I couldn't detect any difference between the way David Williamson performs the striking vanish and the way the performer in the nine minute video performs it, other than the way he ditched the ball. The same is true of the Silent Mora/Dai Vernon wand spin and the one on the nine minute video (except that Vernon did not drop the wand during his performance). Similar methods for ditching a ball can be used when seated at a table or when performing standing up -- if you know what you are doing.
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
Michael J. Douglas
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I remember when I was 11 or 12 watching, if I remember correctly, Shankar Jr. performing the Indian C&Bs at a convention. It was hard to see because he was at a distance on a raised stage, and he was speaking a different language. I could tell he had skill in what he was doing, and I appreciated that, but it was otherwise very boring to me. I'm glad I've gotten the chance to see these videos. I have a much greater admiration for the Indian C&Bs now, as well as the skill and work involved. Smile
Michael J.
�Believe then, if you please, that I can do strange things.� --from Shakespeare�s �As You Like It�
sherifmayika
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Bill Palmer,
There is some western influence in this magician's performance. I guess he started with western cups. The strike vanish may be the same, the spin is not as exactly as Silent Mora. I also become confused because I practiced Vernon spin using Ammar video. Now when performing Indian cups, I forget the original spin.

In the above book list, 'Ilange, P.K. - Indian Cups and Balls' , I have mentioned this magician's name wrongly. The correct name is Ilango, P.K. He is no more, but he has contributed a lot of original tricks and routines to leading magic publications. His comedy newspaper tear is my favorite.
Bill Palmer
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Is there a source in print for P.K. Ilango's newspaper tear?
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
sherifmayika
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Bill Palmer,
I have PMed you, so let us stick this thread to Indian cups and balls.
lint
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Here are some more from my file:

Bamberg, Theo - Indian Conjuring; The Cups and Balls Sphinx Vol. 24, No. 7
Branson, L.H. - Indian Conjuring
Hotz, Edwin - The East Indian Cups and Balls Sphinx Vol. 38, No. 3
Miller, Charlie - The Indian Cups and Balls Genii Vol. 33, No. 3
Miller, Charlie - The Indian Cups and Balls Genii Vol. 33, No. 4
Miller, Charlie - The Indian Cups and Balls Magicana
Rink - The Indian Cups and Balls Genii Vol. 29, No. 9
Sorcar, P.C. - Indian Magic Angali Annual
Sorcar, P.C. - Manipulations of the Indian Cups and Balls
Stanyon, Ellis - The Indian Cups and Balls Magic Vol. 10, No. 5
Joseph, Eddie - The Hindu Cups Magic Vol. 3, No. 11
Joseph, Eddie - Original Conception for the Hindu Cups Tops 1962 Trick Annual
Platt, John - Hindoo Cups and Balls
"There's many a slip 'twixt the cup and the lip..." -English Proverb
sherifmayika
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Lint,
Thanks for bringing these documentations my notice. I will check Genie magazine.
Stellan
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By the way, Sherifmayika, I have two questions for you. The first is if there is a chance to see Indian street magic in Delhi? The second is if you know of any Indian magic words like "hocus pocus"?
"There is no reality, only perception."
sherifmayika
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There are a plenty of good street magicians in Delhi. You can also hear some Indian magic words from them, too.

Posted: Nov 7, 2009 7:36am
Lint,
Which are the best Books in your opinion?
Lawrence O
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What about sitting at a table using egg cups for occidental performers? Haven't we the capacity to adapt otherwise than by breaking the knees of physically older but mentally fresher performers like Pete Biro, Bill Palmer and myself (I'm playing in the same age league, if not at the same level)?

In my opinion, the best books appeared under the pen of Pete Biro and Eddie Joseph.
Magic is the art of proving impossible things in parallel dimensions that can't be reached
sherifmayika
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As I mentioned before, there are two styles of Indian cups and Balls. Kakalimura and Rajamura. In the first style sitting is easy, and in latter, magician sits in 'padmasana' which is more difficult. In this pose, more deceptive moves are possible.

One of the major attractions of the Indian Cups and Balls is that it is street magic. Have you imagined David Blaine trying western cups and balls? Sure, you would say that it does not match his style. In my opinion, if it is taken to the table the originality is lost. We have Dai Vernon's routine and Tommy Wonder's routine to adapt to the table.

Many said Patter is not interesting because it was in a foreign language. It is wrong. I would say patter is 50 percent beauty of the Routine. I have seen the Japanese, the French, the Chinese and certainly Englishman enjoy this trick. I asked them about the patter, and they said that was brilliant. "We could understand everything what he said." There is a harmony between body language and emotions and patter. Why? Because the performer was adept in what he was doing.

Prahlad Acharya and Shankar Jr. are good magicians, but their IC&B is not up to its standard. Both of them have inspired me alot. They are creative, too.
lint
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Hi Sherif,
Thanks for your PM. Unfortunately, I do not study the Indian Cups. Although, I do love the routines and the variation it provides to the c&b world. The list I provided above comes from my research for a cups & balls bibliography. Those were the entries I had that were not listed already in the thread. You can checkout the complete bibliography here:

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......orum=115

Regards,
todd
"There's many a slip 'twixt the cup and the lip..." -English Proverb
Keith Mitchell
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I would like to mention something off-topic here.

Just because you are old does not mean you should give up and grow old. We all should continue getting a good physical workout through out our lifetime, so we can continue to be as healthy as possible for as long as we can. My Dad is 89 and still plays tennis everyday; he is the family's inspiration. I am 47, and I do weight lifting, rock climbing, racquetball, speed biking, and in-line speed skating. I am not or ever have been a super sports jock, I am someone who enjoys working out and being healthy.

I do not know if I can sit on the floor and bend my legs all over the place, but I am not going to sit around complaining that I am too old to do things. My tail bone hurts from sitting too long on a hard floor, so I improvise by putting a pillow down on the floor to sit on.

Besides, this topic is about Indian C&Bs, and I guess it is their cultural habit to sit on the floor the way they do. I have no intentions of adapting to other cultural habits, but it is fun to watch and learn new things. I keep thinking that I would like to see them sitting on a bed of nails performing their C&Bs, or how about a flying carpet?
Bill Palmer
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One thing for sure -- if you perform the cups and balls while sitting on a bed of nails, you won't let the trick move too slowly!
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
Michael J. Douglas
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Quote:
On 2009-11-07 22:20, sherifmayika wrote:
Many said Patter is not interesting because it was in a foreign language. It is wrong. I would say patter is 50 percent beauty of the Routine. I have seen the Japanese, the French, the Chinese and certainly Englishman enjoy this trick. I asked them about the patter, and they said that was brilliant. "We could understand everything what he said." There is a harmony between body language and emotions and patter. Why? Because the performer was adept in what he was doing.


I hope my previous post wasn't misunderstood regarding language. The reason I originally found the Indian C&Bs uninteresting was a combination of my young age, not being able to see what was happening, and not being able to follow the patter because I couldn't understand the language. I found the videos posted here very entertaining, and I can follow along perfectly because I can see what's happening.
Michael J.
�Believe then, if you please, that I can do strange things.� --from Shakespeare�s �As You Like It�
Bill Palmer
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Two things:

1) David Blaine is NOT a street magician. He is a television magician. He performs magic with people on the street, but his real audience is the television audience. This audience seems to be diminishing and is now primarily a YouTube audience.

2) Many "real" street magicians, i.e. buskers, perform the cups and balls in many different forms and in many different venues. Most Western buskers who perform the cups and balls do so with Western cups and the Vernon routine or a variant thereof.

I'm not saying it would be impossible, but I will say it would be very unlikely that any of the Indian performers I have seen on the various YouTube videos could hold an audience in San Francisco, Boston or any of the common American venues. In London, they might have a chance, but the language barrier would definitely pose a problem. Also, if they performed the "full" long routine, their crowd would begin to disperse, unless they had some way of keeping them from moving along.

In India, there is less of a problem, because it's expected that the audience will be prepared to watch or hear an act performed in one of the Indian languages. Part of the problem in the States would be that audiences that do not understand the language of the artist begin to make comments to one another, and soon the rest of the audience is distracted.

It's a pity, but I believe it is true.

Posted: Nov 9, 2009 8:00pm
By the way, this was not intended at all to be a comment against the abilities of the performers of the long Indian cups and balls routine, but a comment about the general taste of American audiences.
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
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