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ThomasJ Special user Chicago 999 Posts |
Essie,
Is that effect in print? -T.J. |
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Brad Burt Inner circle 2675 Posts |
Essie: Perfect example of what I am talking about. I was attempting to keep it to material that everyone would know, but your effect is cool also. I can even think of a method by which it could be done...which means I am probably not even close to the original!!! Best,
Dear Drew: Superb example of my original premise above! Fits all the criteria and then some. Best,
Brad Burt
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Essie Loyal user Boulder, CO 278 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-08-01 05:37, ThomasJ wrote: Not as far as I know, though the methodology is pretty simple. Quote:
On 2008-08-01 13:09, Brad Burt wrote: Actually, as a magician, your guess is probably pretty close. This effect is really designed for laymen, not magicians. PM me, and I'll let you know if you're right.
"Comfort the disturbed, disturb the comfortable."
-Jeff McBride |
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kregg Inner circle 1950 Posts |
The one that "tricks" loudest. It isn't the trick, it's the performer and the presentation. Sponge balls are terrific when done well.
POOF!
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Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts |
I don't agree, kregg. There are tricks that are so amazing and entertaining in themselves that they don't need any presentation, and anyone who can accomplish the trick can get great reactions and results.
The rising card, Ring Flite, Brainwave, Invisible Pack--gee, almost all of Blaine's close-up--all of these can be presented with no personality and still be hits. The performer and presentation are important in an inverse ratio to the deceptiveness and impossibility of the effect. The real need for presentation and engaging performance is to keep and hold the attention of the crowd through the set up and performance of more than one effect, and for the personality of the performer to have a chance of competing with the magic itself--you don't want them to remember the trick and forget you, would you? |
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Darwin Ortiz V.I.P. 486 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-08-02 08:15, kregg wrote: Just to elaborate on Whit’s point, Sponge Balls is “terrific when done well” precisely because it’s a great trick. Your example undermines your point. The Sponge Balls is, in Whit’s words, a trick that doesn’t “need any presentation, and anyone who can accomplish the trick can get great reactions and results.” |
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Brad Burt Inner circle 2675 Posts |
Dear Whit:
Bravo and yes! I have argued this exact premise for months in various posts. There is for me a corollary: For magic to 'be' magic it has to work. That is, it has to be magical. It's really interesting how many on this forum disagree with that. Much of magic is entertaining simply because it is amazing no matter how bad the person presenting it might be. Assuming they do the trick well, etc. But, the trick has to work or it's like stumbling into a wall at the end of a blind alley in the dark. You got somewhere, but there was not a heck of a lot of payoff. The 'payoff' for those who watch a magic trick is getting fooled if you want to use that construction. Thus: Is a "comedy" magician who never has a trick work, never produces an 'effect' that fools really a magician? Or, is he a comedian who pretends to be a magician? A fair number of folks will contend that he's a magician. Obviously, I take the contrary view. Note by the way that I am saying nothing negative about them as an entertainer. They may be the most entertaining faux magician around, but they are not doing magic. Best,
Brad Burt
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The Burnaby Kid Inner circle St. John's, Canada 3158 Posts |
Apparently after all the amazing card sleight of hand that Ricky Jay does in the 52 Assistants show, some people can't stop talking about his cups and balls...
JACK, the Jolly Almanac of Card Knavery, a free card magic resource for beginners.
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-08-02 23:02, Andrew Musgrave wrote: Darn magic cups and wand set steals the show every time. Costs a bunch to keep the yarn imps fed but audiences love what they do.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Lawrence O Inner circle French Riviera 6811 Posts |
For a "perfect routine", I think that one should read the writings of a certain Darwin Ortiz (who I had the pleasure to meet for discussing about this topic years back at the FISM in Lausanne: he was about to edit Strong Magic).
The first one is the most recent one and it's called Designing Miracles. The book is nothing short of brilliant and cover aspects that I felt so concerned with that I also wrote about it back in 1991 (in French unfortunately with a title meaning something like "Taming the dragon"). With some differences, very parallel thinking. The second book is by the same author and is called Strong Magic. If you read these two books you'll have the answer to your questions. If you are prejudiced against Darwin (for no logical reason) find your answers in Tommy Wonder's books, or in Fitzkee's trilogy, or thee various writing of Eugene Burger but it is not as clearly exposed and you will have to do some of the thinking where Darwin has done the analysis for us.
Magic is the art of emotionally sharing live impossible situations
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Brad Burt Inner circle 2675 Posts |
I am a huge fan of Strong Magic and recommend it to anyone wanting to really think about what we do as magicians. Fitzkee is also a wonderful read. I don't think that as many read Fitzkee now days and it's too bad. Best,
Brad Burt
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kregg Inner circle 1950 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-08-02 18:02, Darwin Ortiz wrote: Darwin, I am honored with your response. What is the "trick" of the sponge balls? I agree with much of Whit's post. However, I don't recall one instance of seeing a push button magic trick done so poorly that the trick (by itself) saved the moment. Otherwise, a ball of flash paper would win the day.
POOF!
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JackScratch Inner circle 2151 Posts |
I still stand by my "No such thing as a good trick" belief. There is no effect, so perfect, that a complete lack of audience engagement won't render it completely worthless. No matter how well executed. If you can not make a connection with your audience, then no effect will make you a good magician. I've seen all the "great effects" thus far listed, performed flawlessly, yet still bore the stink out of an audience.
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Ed_Millis Inner circle Yuma, AZ 2292 Posts |
I wonder if some of the "audience engagement" question has anything to do with what style of magic you are performing. Sponge balls by its nature is a very intimate one-on-one effect. You are not going to perform this without engaging a person's attention.
But the larger the audience, the bigger the stage, the more hectic the surrounding (as in busking), and I would side more with Drew that if you can not engage your audience and make them want to connect with you, there is no "world's greatest trick" that will entertain them. Then again, you probably need to be a fairly engaging person on some level if you are going to get someone to let you put strange objects in their hands! As far as Blaine and his lack of personality - who needs that to be engaging when you've got a TV camera crew? Ed |
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Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts |
A man walks up to you while you are sitting at an outside Café table of a restaurant. He doesn't smile, doesn't nod, doesn't even make eye contact.
He merely motions toward your table and the sugar bowl explodes into pieces making a pile of ceramic dust and sugar. He waves again, and the fork by your plate jumps up and lands in a water glass. "I'm doing a show tonight down the street at 8:00 pm," he says as he hands you a free ticket. Would you go? Quote:
On 2008-08-04 10:06, JackScratch wrote: If that were true, there would be no IBM and no SAM. The fact is, many, many people who have no personality and are incapable of engaging others can obtain a modicum of attention and acclaim by doing a few good magic tricks. Those tricks would seem interminal and boring if they were not in and of themselves of interest. Magic is the artform of choice for those with few social skills and an inability to connect with others. This would not be possible if good magic tricks were not entertaining and interesting just in themselves. Before I get jumped, I am not saying that amateurs are not as good as pros, or that there aren't wonderful magicians in the IBM and SAM. I am a member of both organizations, after all. But you have to admit that in every magic club, there are a number of people who perform magic and enjoy it and get attention from it, who could not hold a puppy's interest for two minutes. This is because magic can be interesting even when it is performed without personality and engagement. This is what makes magic different from music, dance and other art forms. A badly done song is worse than nothing at all, but a badly presented magic trick, that really fools you, is still worth looking at. I believe as strongly as anyone in the importance of presentation. I am a professional actor, and I believe that to become an artist, one must engage the spectators minds and move their hearts. Look at my work. There is plenty of video of my closeup and stage on my website. I believe in the importance of character development and theater. I am closer to Drew's position than you would think. But his vehement, rigid position that magic is simply theater, and that the "trick doesn't matter" makes him seem foolish and ridiculous. Drew's position is reductio ad absurdum. If you don't understand what makes magic interesting at its heart, if you don't see the importance of solidly "fooling" people, then you will skewer your own efforts from the start. It is an inartistic approach to magic that doesn't understand the nature of the artform and how it differs from traditional theater. Watching a magician and a play about a magician are two entirely different experiences. Having a wonderful trick doesn't make you a great magician, but a wonderful trick, performed well enough to fool, will still be able to hold people's interest and be remarkable nevertheless. Carl Ballantine is a fine magician. His famous stage act is engaging and entertaining, and "magical." But it isn't magic. He would be the first to tell you that. By Drew's theory, Carl would be one of the greatest magicians that ever lived, without ever having fooled anyone. But Carl wouldn't say that. He would say he was a comedian taking the mickey out of magicians. |
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molsen Special user Copenhagen 552 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-08-03 18:44, Brad Burt wrote: Bears repeating. As for the most magic effect? I think anything that doesn't seem contrieved but has a strong unexpected result would impress me. Some argue that the performer being good or bad can add or subract from this. If it is truly epic levels of magic (if the exploding sugar bowl mentioned above would reassemble flawlessly afterwards for example) I don't think a bad performance can ruin it. However, nothing that has been mentioned fits that bill for me. With the mentioned effects, I do believe someone can present it poorly, and it will seem non-magical. There are people that can just drain an audience of excitement instead of driving it up. Look on youtube if you don't believe me. "The moment you have invented something that is idiot proof, someone will invent a better idiot." Can't find the source of this quote, someone help. Michael |
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The Burnaby Kid Inner circle St. John's, Canada 3158 Posts |
If there's no such thing as a good or bad trick, then why aren't more people closing their shows by laying out three rows of seven? Plenty of opportunity to inject showmanship into that little ditty.
JACK, the Jolly Almanac of Card Knavery, a free card magic resource for beginners.
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-08-04 18:54, Andrew Musgrave wrote: Perhaps because they have no presentation for it which brings the procedure into something interesting and the revelation into something meaningful.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Michael Kamen Inner circle Oakland, CA 1315 Posts |
Maybe also they have no compelling motivation for all the dealing into piles -- "its just part of the trick."
I daresay if they had one, it would be thoroughly contrived and not very good as a closer anyway. Lets face it its a bad trick. Too much un or poorly motivated monkey business for a trivial outcome.
Michael Kamen
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Tempted to take this on as a scriptwriting challenge -
hmmm digits of pi 3 rows, 14 cards here, seven there - no that looks uneven... four volunteers one to first think of a card from the group then they elect three delegates to permit the performer attempts to read their mind... yes I believe it can be done Sadly, even though fun the payoff can be anticipated by too many who've learned the thing in a format which was pointless procedure as mentioned in the posts above and offering only a trivial revelation rather then something fun with the merely thought of card - say making it blank and producing the actual selection from the first volunteer's sleeve or such. Not so much a bad trick but it is well known and there's quite a bit of procedure to get through before you can know the selected card.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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