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tom hughes
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You've been to Kozmo and Chris Capeheart's lectures? Oh... you must be a busking god already! I'm off to see Michael Ammar lecture tonight, think I'll be booked for the castle tomorrow!

Will you stop fixating on the suit please? Joejoe's "criticism" had very little to do with what you wear but rather in the way that you effectivelly destroyed that pitch for yourself by going in guns blazing rather than subtly establishing yourself as a presence in the locale... it's a very valid point and I'm sure you will live to regret not listening to it.

I notice on this thread that there are very few people actually responding who are practicing buskers... i.e. people who go out, draw a crowd to them, entertain that crowd and pass the HAT to make money. Two of those actual, real life buskers are JoeJoe and Paddy yet you choose to denigrate them and merely listen, and acknowledge, those with whom you already agree; thus learning absolutely nothing. Why do you do this? Well it could be because you are jealous of them, I think it is.

Go out this summer Mike, dress as you will, pack big and play big, refer to all those who disagree, or offer valid and good advise to you FOR FREE (!!), as jealous, become an internet "expert", insist on learning through the school of hard knocks and harder heads... or listen to actual, real, honest to goodness, in the street, hat passing BUSKERS and save yourself a load of hassle... it'll still be a tough learning curve.

Oh, and by the way Mike... self praise is no recommendation.

tom
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Dynamike
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Relax, Tom. You can do it too if you try, I promise. It takes self-confidence.
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Quote:
On 2009-04-03 16:00, tom hughes wrote:
Joejoe's "criticism" had very little to do with what you wear but rather in the way that you effectivelly destroyed that pitch for yourself by going in guns blazing rather than subtly establishing yourself as a presence in the locale... it's a very valid point and I'm sure you will live to regret not listening to it.


I'm glad to see others are comprehending my point. At some point, I was actually re-reading my posts trying to see where I failed to articulate my advice properly.

I'm beginning to think that it is Mike that has the issue with his suit - I myself don't have any issues with his attire. In fact ... I told him "that suit would look great under the spotlights of a large stage" in my very first post. It has nothing to do with the suit itself.



I will try to explain this to you again Mike, I'll simplify it and leave the suit out entirely by focusing on this one part: "don't even hat the audience, your goal is to break in a new pitch not make a lot of money".

If you had not passed the hat, those cops would not have asked you for your paperwork (paperwork that doesn't even exist). If you had gone there a couple of days, and those cops saw you there daily ... they would eventually get to the point where they wouldn't pay you no mind. THEN ... THEN ... you could have passed the hat and they would have never batted an eye lash at you.

It's been a year, you could actually go back now ... go to City Hall, and ask the City Clerk for a copy of the regulation you found ... get her card and staple it to the code she gives you. She will do this, City Clerks are normally very nice. If the cops should hassle you, hand them the paper work and explain she said it would be ok.

But if you do this ... don't go out there guns blazing - let them see you working a few times before you turn up the heat. If you do this properly, and you become a local fixture ... then you have a "perfect pitch". The reason? Because if anyone else should ever show up to take your spot ... those same cops will chase them off for you! If you invest the time into breaking this pitch in, you could end up doing very well for yourself there.

But be careful passing the hat - you want to figure out how to get people to give you money without asking them for it. After you've been out a few times and the cops have sniffed you out and are leaving you alone, introduce a small tip jar on the ground. If you can befriend the cops, do so ... and then drop them hints on how your not making much money. Your goal in doing so is to get them to give you advise on how to make more money - think like a hustler.



You can dismiss my advice if you like, it is no skin off my back either way. I think I've been very nice to you. Like it's been pointed out here by others ... I'm the guy that has been doing what you want to do for years and years now. In fact, I've worked Detroit - lots of liquor stores, lots of bums. You are smart for looking for areas outside Detroit to work. Do you have any amusement parks? I'd recommend somewhere like Six Flags for you. Somewhere you can find tourists from outside the Detroit area.



-JoeJoe
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Dynamike
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Quote:
On 2009-04-03 05:22, Dynamike wrote:
Whatever. Smile

I do not believe a word you said, dude. I am not going to waste my time with you. You are just hurting yourself. Get a life. Smile
tom hughes
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You... sir.... are a buffoon.
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Mike, no one is talking about your suit any more, we are talking about your attitude. The same attitude that makes me want to step in and write this message.

I think you are blowing this thing WAY out of proportion. Your replies have reached melting point, the point of no return, where if you start to agree with anything JoeJoe says it will make you seem weak and unexperienced.

I don't see how you can move on from here without eating a little crow and apologizing for your actions. This did not start out as an attack thread, and 99% of the advise you have received in it is helpful to you if you would only have eyes to see. But right now your ego has invested too much for that. You are blinded right now by ego and embarrassment, and you really need to step back and take a deep breath before going on with this discussion.

I hope you take this message in the same spirit in which it is offered.
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Quote:
On 2009-04-03 18:34, Chance wrote:
Mike, no one is talking about your suit any more, we are talking about your attitude. The same attitude that makes me want to step in and write this message.

I think you are blowing this thing WAY out of proportion. Your replies have reached melting point, the point of no return, where if you start to agree with anything JoeJoe says it will make you seem weak and unexperienced.

I don't see how you can move on from here without eating a little crow and apologizing for your actions. This did not start out as an attack thread, and 99% of the advise you have received in it is helpful to you if you would only have eyes to see. But right now your ego has invested too much for that. You are blinded right now by ego and embarrassment, and you really need to step back and take a deep breath before going on with this discussion.

I hope you take this message in the same spirit in which it is offered.


Hi, Chance. I have not heard from you for a while. Thanks for jumping in because it is nice to hear from you again.

I agree with the professionals I communicated with privately. They know how to express their advice in a manner well worth listening to.

I have apologized with others before on The Café. It usually starts from a misunderstanding. But here the disagreements just got deeper and deeper. Even if I did apologize, I would just be making it worse because I do not regret a word I put in this thread. I see no need why I should lie with an apology.

I want to thank you again, Chance. But I really meant what I placed in my last post. That's my prerogative.
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Quote:
On 2009-04-03 17:04, JoeJoe wrote:
Quote:
On 2009-04-03 16:00, tom hughes wrote:
Joejoe's "criticism" had very little to do with what you wear but rather in the way that you effectivelly destroyed that pitch for yourself by going in guns blazing rather than subtly establishing yourself as a presence in the locale... it's a very valid point and I'm sure you will live to regret not listening to it.


I'm glad to see others are comprehending my point. At some point, I was actually re-reading my posts trying to see where I failed to articulate my advice properly.

I'm beginning to think that it is Mike that has the issue with his suit - I myself don't have any issues with his attire. In fact ... I told him "that suit would look great under the spotlights of a large stage" in my very first post. It has nothing to do with the suit itself.



I will try to explain this to you again Mike, I'll simplify it and leave the suit out entirely by focusing on this one part: "don't even hat the audience, your goal is to break in a new pitch not make a lot of money".

If you had not passed the hat, those cops would not have asked you for your paperwork (paperwork that doesn't even exist). If you had gone there a couple of days, and those cops saw you there daily ... they would eventually get to the point where they wouldn't pay you no mind. THEN ... THEN ... you could have passed the hat and they would have never batted an eye lash at you.

It's been a year, you could actually go back now ... go to City Hall, and ask the City Clerk for a copy of the regulation you found ... get her card and staple it to the code she gives you. She will do this, City Clerks are normally very nice. If the cops should hassle you, hand them the paper work and explain she said it would be ok.

But if you do this ... don't go out there guns blazing - let them see you working a few times before you turn up the heat. If you do this properly, and you become a local fixture ... then you have a "perfect pitch". The reason? Because if anyone else should ever show up to take your spot ... those same cops will chase them off for you! If you invest the time into breaking this pitch in, you could end up doing very well for yourself there.

But be careful passing the hat - you want to figure out how to get people to give you money without asking them for it. After you've been out a few times and the cops have sniffed you out and are leaving you alone, introduce a small tip jar on the ground. If you can befriend the cops, do so ... and then drop them hints on how your not making much money. Your goal in doing so is to get them to give you advise on how to make more money - think like a hustler.



You can dismiss my advice if you like, it is no skin off my back either way. I think I've been very nice to you. Like it's been pointed out here by others ... I'm the guy that has been doing what you want to do for years and years now. In fact, I've worked Detroit - lots of liquor stores, lots of bums. You are smart for looking for areas outside Detroit to work. Do you have any amusement parks? I'd recommend somewhere like Six Flags for you. Somewhere you can find tourists from outside the Detroit area.

-JoeJoe


Hi JoeJoe -

It is quite obvious to me that your advice is coming from a place of kindness and respect. Not sure why it has been repeatedly met with such consternation, but please know that I, for one, appreciate the time you have spent in your efforts to assist a fellow performer.

I will be in Myrtle Beach the first week of May. Hopefully our paths will cross and I can buy you a cup of coffee.

Best,

dc
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JoeJoe
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Chance: I think his disagreeing with me is making him look weak and inexperienced too, he has really put himself in a catch-22. I don't subscribe to his "whose better than who" attitude in any way shape or form, those magic competitions do more damage than good. Busking is not a competitive sport, it's not a race to see who will "win".

I'd actually like to see him go back - I think that area has a lot of potential. He could be very successful there. But getting thrown off the pitch and pretending it was a huge success is not going to cut it. Yes, he took a big first step and showed a lot of courage and did a great job and should be patted on the back ... but he would be wise to give the situation an honest evaluation looking for mistakes that can be avoided in the future. People that don't admit their mistakes are doomed to repeat them.

I'm actually surprised your not telling him to get a TRO and fight the city ... I wouldn't disagree with you if you did, but I do think getting a copy of the ordinance from the Clerk and playing a con job on the cops would be easier, faster, and cheaper. But the first thing he'd need to do is check his ego at the door.



Quote:
On 2009-04-04 07:05, dcjames wrote:
please know that I, for one, appreciate the time you have spent in your efforts to assist a fellow performer.


Your very welcomed James. I'm glad that others are finding it insightful, if I was just talking to Mike I would have gave up on this thread a long time ago. Simon Cowell get's boo'd every night on American Idol, but he still gives people his honest opinion. If Mike can't respect me for being honest with him then that is his problem, not mine.

I'm not sure where I'll be in May, I make it a habit not to start my spring schedule until after I finish my taxes. Shot me a PM closer to May.

You said the first week? The first Thursday of the month is our local magic meeting ... you should come! They are held in Dave Tanner's warehouse - he owns Broadway Magic so when you get to town, go to Broadway at the Beach and look for the magic shop and they can give you directions to the meeting. I don't make many meeting, but I am going to try to be at that one.

-JoeJoe
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With all due respect JJ, now you're just rubbing salt in the wounds. Stomping all over his thread doesn't show him you care. Be the bigger man and step back. Leave the man some dignity.
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I didn't take the man's dignity - the cops did that when they chased him off the pitch. If he wants his dignity, he should go back and get it from them.

To date, I am the absolute only person that has given him any suggestions on how to get his pitch back, or even encouraged him to do so. I'm disappointed with you Chance; you told me to give back my illegal permits and get arrested and file lawsuits ... coddling Mike like this does him no favors. These cops had no right to chase him off public property, I am not the bad guy here!

The law is on Mike's side, since he has found that ordinance I believe he should go back - he has the right to be there. The cops wanted to see his paper work, getting a copy of that ordinance from the City Clerk would meet their criteria. I've said that at least twice now, I think it's actually the third time I've told him to see the City Clerk. Get a yellow highlighter and highlight this sentence of the ordinance so the cops can't miss it: "sidewalk entertainers shall be allowed to perform on outdoor public areas or walkways live entertainment".

He just has to make sure the cops don't use their "discretion" to move him along, while I don't agree with that part of the ordinance it is the law and he needs to be mindful of it. It would be cheaper and faster to get on the cop's good side than to fight the illegal ordinance in Court.



So quit acting like this Mike ... I am the only person here trying to actually help you. It is just foolish of you to disregard my advice because I thought your jacket was inappropriate for the venue. Go get your papers from the clerk, and go reclaim your pitch. I will be the very first person to congratulate you.

Just remember to take it easy at first - don't build large crowds, keep it simple ... after the cops realize your not a problem for them, they will leave you alone and you can then turn the heat up. I would take a tip jar to place on the ground, and if they say anything about it pretend like the clerk said that would be ok as long as you didn't actually ask for a tip and people gave it to him of their own free will. You could actually make a lot of money with balloons that way.

This isn't about your ability to entertain or do magic - if you don't want to listen to me, listen to Jimmy ... page one ... in all capital letters ... "IT DOES NOT MATTER IN THE LEAST HOW GOOD YOU ARE AT MAGIC"! That's lesson #1. You could be the greatest magician in the world, if the cops tell you to go home it is useless.



-JoeJoe
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Quote:
I am the only person here trying to actually help you.


This really says it all, doesn't it?

As for how I dispense advise JJ, I give it as I see it, not "one size fits all". Don't make this about me. This is Mike's thread. Just it would be nice if you guys could quit swinging barbs around. Why is it so impossible just to say "here's what I would do" and leave it at that?
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Quote:
On 2009-04-06 14:12, Chance wrote:
Quote:
I am the only person here trying to actually help you.


This really says it all, doesn't it?


Yes it does Chance. Now your doing the same thing he is doing - trying to turn this into a personal pee'ing contest. It's not. Mike may have started the thread, but there are 39,179 other people here that have access to it.

The larger issues here are about our rights to busk, what to do when those rights are infringed upon, and how we can prevent them from being infringed upon in the first place. That is what this topic should be about - not Mike's suit.

What is your advise to Mike and the rest of us on these subjects? Just suck it up? Give up the pitch? Hope it doesn't happen again? Only work when you have a permit? Move to Canada? This isn't the first time something like this has happened, and it won't be the last. What do you suggest we do about it when it does happen??

-JoeJoe
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JoeJoe, your latest post reminded me, I was going to phone the nearest city here about their proposed review of their busking policy around now. While I was away, a couple of months back, some buskers in the strand I usually work in part-time were using amplifiers and complaints were made about the noise level. One of the city free weekly newspapers had articles and Letters to the Editor about it for about three weeks. Most people said they wanted the buskers, but not too much noise. So, the city council news was that the busking regulations were due to reviewed in April anyway. Well, since then I've busked a couple of times in that strand and no problems from anyone. I don't use an amplifier and am not a noisy fellow. I also have avoided applying for the busking permit, but had no problem over that. But if I don't speak up at the appropriate time, it's little use crying foul afterwards, is it? At least if I do speak up I can protest that I did object legally. I'd better phone that council tomorrow and catch up on where things are at regarding submissions on the current busking regs. Now, I'd better write me a reminder note...
The presentation makes the magic.
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JJ I've got no bone to pick with you, and I'm in no way threatened by your act. You don't know me, so let me just say for the record that people who do know me know that I am quite comfortable in my own skin, and I've rebuffed much tougher guys than you. If this is a peeing contest, you're standing very alone.

Besides that, you have completely hijacked this thread, which is rude to say the least. All I've been trying to do with my past few messages is to politely remind you to stop, and to start again with your own thread if there are other ideas you would like to bring up on your own.

So now I will do it with less restraint: Stop being a ****. Get off Mike's case and go start your own thread if you feel you're not getting a fair shake with this one.
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Chance, thanks for using your courage to step in to get this thread undercontrol, I appreciate it. As we all can see Joe is not going to listen. I believe because he knows he is wrong with his earlier post, so he now wants to come and change his/my words around. It is really going to be no good because I picture a person the same as when I first meet them. And he is really making his post look worse by the changing. For example:
Quote:
On 2008-08-04 06:49, JoeJoe wrote:
I'm not going to pat you on the back, you've now ruined your pitch

Quote:
On 2009-04-04 10:51, JoeJoe wrote:
Yes, he took a big first step and showed a lot of courage and did a great job and should be patted on the back




Chance, yes at first it was over the suit. He mentioned I looked like a weirdo:
Quote:
On 2008-08-04 06:49, JoeJoe wrote:
That suit would look great under the spotlights of a large stage, but on the street you look like a weirdo. Dress down.

But no big thing because he can not stop me from being who I wants to be, "myself." I can understand why those with an arrest warrant would want to dress down, but I'm clean.

And, Chance, here is one area where he tries and turns my words around:

Quote:
On 2009-04-06 13:06, JoeJoe wrote:
I didn't take the man's dignity - the cops did that when they chased him off the pitch.


I mentioned two cops were watching me. They never chased me down. They watched what I was doing during my first act and walked away. :
Quote:
On 2008-08-04 00:56, Dynamike wrote:
dynamike

Photo #102.jpg you will noticed a girl in the front with a pink outfit. Standing behind her is her father. (He gave me $10 after my act). Look slightly right of her father. You will notice a police officer. He had a partner with him also. They stayed until the #108.jpg picture was taken as I was performing my Linking Ring rountine.


A sergeant noticed me passing my hat at the end of my second performance, and did not stop me there.:
Quote:
On 2008-08-04 00:56, Dynamike wrote:
I moved to a different area about 30 feet away and performed again. I had more of a crowd. I felt more relaxed. I saw a sergeant as I doing my collection. He did not say anything to me. I moved to a new area about 50 feet away. I was announcing I was about to start. The sergeant spoke to me wanting to see my papers to perform. Since I had nothing to show him he told me to walk away.

The sergeant walked up to me and requested my papers as I was setting up for my third performance because he noticed me passing the hat at the end of my second performance, not because of what I was wearing.

And, Chance, another reason I am not going to take Joe's advice is because it can get me in trouble. Noticed the following as he mentions "the cops had no right to chase me off public property." (It was really a sergeant telling me to leave). And notices how Joe mentions I should get a copy of the city ordinance and highlight a certain sentence:
Quote:
On 2009-04-06 13:06, JoeJoe wrote:
These cops had no right to chase him off public property, I am not the bad guy here!

The law is on Mike's side, since he has found that ordinance I believe he should go back - he has the right to be there. The cops wanted to see his paper work, getting a copy of that ordinance from the City Clerk would meet their criteria. I've said that at least twice now, I think it's actually the third time I've told him to see the City Clerk. Get a yellow highlighter and highlight this sentence of the ordinance so the cops can't miss it: "sidewalk entertainers shall be allowed to perform on outdoor public areas or walkways live entertainment".


Now look what a certain line of the city ordinance reads:
Quote:
On 2008-08-08 17:16, Dynamike wrote:
(2) Such performances shall not take place during any carnival, festival, parade, or other event that either is scheduled by any city department or is permitted by the city council;


I mentioned in my first post this was a "festival":
Quote:
On 2008-08-04 00:56, Dynamike wrote:
Sunday, 8-30-08 is my first time street busking. One of the summer weekly festivals were happening Downtown Detroit at Hart Plaza.


Chance, if I go by Joe's advice I can get arrested. It is best not to try and fight a law enforcer's demand. That sergeant did have the right to tell me to leave because of what I doing at the festival.

There is much more I can prove, but I am just wasting my time by reading his post, Chance. No problem, if wants to take this thread to himself, let it be. I know where I am at. That is why I started this thread without any questions. Keep cool, Chance. Thanks again.
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Personally, I think that Dynamike's blue suit and JoeJoe's blue star combo go great together. You two should reconcile and become a duo like Penn and Teller. You could call yourselves, True Blue Hue. Have to go... feeling a little blue. (hardy har har)
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Quote:
On 2009-04-07 11:47, Dynamike wrote:
yes at first it was over the suit. He mentioned I looked like a weirdo:


Weird - it means "of strange or extraordinary character". Are you saying that your suit is not extraordinary? The suit does not look "ordinary" to me, but that's just my opinion.



Quote:
On 2009-04-07 11:47, Dynamike wrote:
I mentioned two cops were watching me. They never chased me down. They watched what I was doing during my first act and walked away. :


At the end the day, they told you to go home - yes, they chased you off the pitch. It's a figure of speech. I didn't mean you were literally running from them.



Quote:
On 2008-08-08 17:16, Dynamike wrote:
(2) Such performances shall not take place during any carnival, festival, parade, or other event that either is scheduled by any city department or is permitted by the city council;


Is there a festival there this weekend? If not, you could work that pitch. You have a lot of nerve to call us "sissy" when you are the one that is afraid to go back. And if you go back and work that pitch every weekend ... when the festival gets here ... the cops would let you work it. You will "belong" there. You fail to grasp the concept.

The biggest hurdle you have to cross is how to pass the hat when your not allowed to pass the hat. Ever since "Magic Mike" (no relation to you Dynamike) lost his lawsuit against Seattle these "no hat line" laws have been cropping up everywhere. I fear that if the conservative court upholds them, we are all going to end up screwed.

-JoeJoe
Amazing JoeJoe on YouTube[url=https://www.youtube.com/user/AmazingJoeJoe]
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Quote:
On 2009-04-07 14:27, sardini wrote:
Personally, I think that Dynamike's blue suit and JoeJoe's blue star combo go great together. You two should reconcile and become a duo like Penn and Teller. You could call yourselves, True Blue Hue. Have to go... feeling a little blue. (hardy har har)


I once had a kid tell me I was dressed like a weirdo ... I said "it doesn't look like you dressed yourself over there". His mom couldn't stop laughing.

I have no desire for a partner, I prefer to work alone. But yes ... Mike would make a great one if I wanted to go that route. He would be on the short list of people I'd be willing to partner with. I don't understand why he thinks I don't like him.

-JoeJoe
Amazing JoeJoe on YouTube[url=https://www.youtube.com/user/AmazingJoeJoe]
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Quote:
On 2009-04-07 14:27, sardini wrote:
Personally, I think that Dynamike's blue suit and JoeJoe's blue star combo go great together. You two should reconcile and become a duo like Penn and Teller. You could call yourselves, True Blue Hue. Have to go... feeling a little blue. (hardy har har)

Sardini, think again...

Dynamike's website: http://aceproductionsusa.com/

JoeJoe's website: http://joejoeonline.com

Dynamike on You Tube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6X4xxir9whI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yl9TdvSi8Sc&feature=related

JoeJoe on You Tube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KegD9XcTA......nel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxzgEOkPi......nel_page
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