The Magic Café
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » New to magic? » » Brand new and don't have a clue (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3~4~5..11~12~13 [Next]
Tom Cutts
View Profile
Staff
Northern CA
5852 Posts

Profile of Tom Cutts
It is a matter of preference as to viewing others at your point. The issue is if you end up leading or following on your path. I would only add this: if you know you are new and you know you are clueless, well you have a phenomenal clue. I applaud your honesty and it should serve you well. The biggest clue we can hope to grasp is just how little we do know!

Cheers,

Tom
GaryW
View Profile
Veteran user
HSMagic
317 Posts

Profile of GaryW
Quote:
On 2008-08-10 17:29, Magiguy wrote:
Another small piece of advice... stick with books.

No offense to Magiguy, but books have limitations. I read Bobo's Modern Coin Magic at least 5 times cover to cover, but many of the moves made more sense once I saw David Roth do it on his Videos.

The books.. you should own them and read them. Buy anything else that supplements that education.
Gary Ailes
Hot Shot Magic
www.hotshotmagic.com
Julianna
View Profile
New user
78 Posts

Profile of Julianna
So my uncle came over because he knew I was excited to show him the trick. He loved it and he was really proud of me. He never expected me to learn a trick so fast. He asked how I chose such a good trick, I told him from the guys at the Magic Café. He started cracking up!

He gave me a box of brand new cards. There's like 12 or 13 decks.

Ok, so I made him live up to his side of the bargain and show me something else. He showed me how to move a card from top to bottom, and then from bottom to top, while shuffling. Really cool, I didn't even know you could do something like that. I can shuffle regular pretty good I guess.

Something else that was funny, he gave me 10 cards with a # from 1 to 10 and asked if I could remember what card went with each #. He said it was important but wouldn't tell me why.

The not knowing is pretty exciting, but I'll try.

jewels p Smile
Patrick Differ
View Profile
Inner circle
1540 Posts

Profile of Patrick Differ
Keep working with your Uncle. He sounds like a good guy.
Will you walk into my parlour? said the Spider to the Fly,
Tis the prettiest little parlour that ever you did spy;
The way into my parlour is up a winding stair,
And I've a many curious things to show when you are there.

Oh no, no, said the little Fly, to ask me is in vain,
For who goes up your winding stair
-can ne'er come down again.
DStachowiak
View Profile
Inner circle
Baltimore, MD
2158 Posts

Profile of DStachowiak
Quote:
On 2008-08-11 19:21, garcia00 wrote:
Quote:
On 2008-08-11 18:20, Open Traveller wrote:
Quote:
On 2008-08-10 18:05, garcia00 wrote:
Quote:
On 2008-08-10 17:29, Magiguy wrote:
Another small piece of advice... stick with books.


As a teacher, I would advise you to use the medium with which you learn best. A visual learner would benefit more from video or personal instruction.


Of the three learning modes; visual, auditory or kinesthetic; just which one would you think reading falls into?

For best results, a learner shouldn't fall wholesale into the mode in which she learns best. There has to be a demand on the learner, or it's just mimicking.


Reading falls into verbal, which you left out of your list. Reading is one of the most difficult methods for learning new fields, since vocabulary skills will be limited, which makes decoding unknown words more difficult. However, once the specialized vocabulary is learned, reading passes the highest information density.

So a new learner should choose the method which causes him/her the most difficulty? Guess that is the way to go to increase frustration and reduce the odds of success.

I have no idea what to make of the notion that knowledge is only worthwhile if hard to obtain.

Julianna's posts indicate she has fine verbal skills (better than many others here), and her vocabulary should be quite adequate for reading and understanding "The Royal Road to Card Magic". If she has to look up a word or two, this may be a plus, as it will help "burn in" the lesson she is working with. (My opinion, of course)
Don
Woke up.
Fell out of bed.
Dragged a comb across m' head.
molsen
View Profile
Special user
Copenhagen
552 Posts

Profile of molsen
I have followed this thread for a while now, and although I have nothing to add to the great advice here, I just want to say how much I enjoy seeing someone coming to the world of magic and taking so much pleasure in it.

Julianna, best of luck to you Smile

Michael
garcia00
View Profile
Elite user
443 Posts

Profile of garcia00
Quote:
On 2008-08-12 17:28, Open Traveller wrote:
No, a new learner shouldn't choose the method which causes the most difficulty; I didn't say that. What I said is that a learner shouldn't use only the mode that's most comfortable. That's a crippling strategy. One has to keep expanding the boundaries of the comfort zone, and you can't do that by staying in the comfort zone.

"Verbal" isn't a learning mode. It's a skillset. "Reading" is also a skillset. Of the three learning modes, which are the three I mentioned, which does reading fall into? Verbal falls into "auditory."

Numerous sources list different modes of learning. The three you list are usually broken down into more categories. I prefer to use more categories.

Reading does not fall into auditory unless it is read aloud to you (obviously). Most sources will list reading as visual, which is fine, but reading is much different than learning by by watching a demonstration or a video. Hence I differentiate.

Some people have disabilities/difficulties which cannot be "corrected" by practice. It is a decoding/translation issue. I see it everyday at work. It is a fact. Not sure if this is the case here, but you seem to ignore this fact.

You said there must be a "demand" on the person. Must is a mandatory word. Thus you infer they should not use the method with which they learn the most readily. It is with this statement I most disagree with. Keep in mind most magic texts are written above the high school level.



Quote:
On 2008-08-13 08:34, DStachowiak wrote:
Julianna's posts indicate she has fine verbal skills (better than many others here), and her vocabulary should be quite adequate for reading and understanding "The Royal Road to Card Magic". If she has to look up a word or two, this may be a plus, as it will help "burn in" the lesson she is working with. (My opinion, of course)
Don

I agree on your assessment of the writing skills. I am speaking of the specialized vocabulary, of which none was used. Such as "now display the cards using the Elmsley count". I think a lot of new comers can get frustrated when suggested books which reference other books (are not self-contained). This has always been a pet peeve of mine. If you are going to publish an effect, publish it all! It is ripping off the customer if you do not.

If memory serves, Royal Road does not have this problem.
Julianna
View Profile
New user
78 Posts

Profile of Julianna
I was looking thru RRTCM, Ha, I picked up on the abbreviation. Didn't make the connection at first. LOL!

How do you guys know what are the good tricks?

I've been practicing shuffling, and moving the card from top to bottom.

It's a lot easier going to the bottom than to the top.

Time to take a break, my girlfriends are here to take me to the pool.

jp
Open Traveller
View Profile
Inner circle
1087 Posts

Profile of Open Traveller
Quote:
Numerous sources list different modes of learning. The three you list are usually broken down into more catagories. I prefer to use more categories.

Okay, that's fine, but you're crossing categories, which isn't fine.


Quote:
Reading does not fall into auditory unless it is read aloud to you (obviously). Most sources will list reading as visual, which is fine, but reading is much different than learning by by watching a demonstration or a video. Hence I differentiate.

Okay, but if something is being read to you, you're not reading. You're listening. Are you being real, or are you just jacking with me?


Quote:
Some people have disabilities/difficulties which cannot be "corrected" by practice. It is a decoding/translation issue. I see it everyday at work. It is a fact. Not sure if this is the case here, but you seem to ignore this fact.

I'm not ignoring this fact, I just don't see why specific cases that are a minority should be brought in as an argument against the general.


Quote:
You said there must be a "demand" on the person. Must is a mandatory word.

Actually, what I wrote is, "There has to be a demand on the learner, or it's just mimicking." While I concede a similar meaning, they're not exactly the same, so your misquoting me doesn't help here. In any event, I think you're over-parsing. What I'm trying to convey is that we have to stretch. You seem to be arguing against that, saying that students/learners must remain firmly in the modes in which they're most comfortable.

Let's imagine the brain, in a metaphorical sense, is a cluster of muscles. By engaging the brain in different activities, we strengthen certain muscles. Now let's imagine you meet a person who has spindly legs but 16-inch biceps. To me, it sounds like you would encourage him to exercise only his biceps. After all, that's what he's always been most comfortable with, and he should follow his natural inclinations.


Quote:
Thus you infer they should not use the method with which they learn the most readily.

This is the second time I'm correcting you on this point, because that's not what I said at all. You're arguing against a position I don't hold.

What I said was that learners shouldn't use only the mode in which they're most comfortable. I'm surprised you haven't grasped the difference. I don't think our person above should exercise only his biceps.

And since you're a teacher, you should probably be aware that this is a most incorrect usage of the word "infer."


As an aside, do you know why the Elmsley Count is never taught in any of the routines in Royal Road to Card Magic?


======

Julianna,

Sorry for derailing your thread. You seem like a delightful person.

Best to you....
Pete Legend
View Profile
Inner circle
Ireland
1366 Posts

Profile of Pete Legend
Awwwwww lol what a sweet thread Smile Brings back memories of my first book.I don't perform with cards or do "magic" anymore as I turned to the dark side a long time ago but this thread reminds me why I started Smile

Oh by the way Julianna your uncle rocks!

Pete
garcia00
View Profile
Elite user
443 Posts

Profile of garcia00
Normally I would not waste time, but people need to be educated as to education.

Quote:
On 2008-08-13 15:07, Open Traveller wrote:


Quote:
Okay, but if something is being read to you, you're not reading. You're listening. Are you being real, or are you just jacking with me?

Reading is verbal. It is a sub-class under auditory when read to you, and visual when you read it yourself. I prefer to keep reading on its own, since so many learners have problems with it.

And you are the one jacking. Either that, or you do not understand the concept of multi-tier classification schemes. Take your pick.

Quote:
I'm not ignoring this fact, I just don't see why specific cases that are a minority should be brought in as an argument against the general.

Interesting concept, and, while looking on the surface true, is nonetheless totally wrong. My school's student population has about 40% with some sort of learning disability, of which verbal is the majority, with reading being the most prevalent (not sure if that is spelled right-I'll let you check it for me). This school is a multi-county vocational school which draws from about 15 counties and 3 cities, so is pretty average.

Quote:
Actually, what I wrote is, "There has to be a demand on the learner, or it's just mimicking." While I concede a similar meaning, they're not exactly the same, so your misquoting me doesn't help here. In any event, I think you're over-parsing. What I'm trying to convey is that we have to stretch. You seem to be arguing against that, saying that students/learners must remain firmly in the modes in which they're most comfortable.

I did misquote, my error.

However, you are correct. I see no need to move from a person's easiest learning method to a more difficult one, when learning the same material, unless the goal is to strengthen a weakness capable of improvement. I have no problem decoding difficult text for a multiple stage card trick. However, it is easier for me to view the video, or be shown the proper hand position in person.

For some people, it is not possible to decode the words and make sense of it. Trying is useless. You are putting down these people, whether they are the minority or the majority.

I say majority because I would advance the thesis that the majority of people learn magic better from personal instruction or DVD instruction (which is personal) than from the written word. I do not believe this thesis is debatable, however you can argue what "better" is (faster, more precise, etc.).

Quote:
Let's imagine the brain, in a metaphorical sense, is a cluster of muscles. By engaging the brain in different activities, we strengthen certain muscles. Now let's imagine you meet a person who has spindly legs but 16-inch biceps. To me, it sounds like you would encourage him to exercise only his biceps. After all, that's what he's always been most comfortable with, and he should follow his natural inclinations.

Let's imagine a quadriplegic being dumped onto the floor and being told he should exercise his muscles, then he could walk. When speaking of a learning disability, that is an appropriate analogy.

I used to have the bias towards books. However, all the material I used to read for hours to figure out, can now be learned in minutes, thanks to the personal instruction DVD's offer. I still read a lot of books, however, if I want to learn a new sleight or move, I want personal instruction (DVD). Each person has their own reason for this bias. I have dropped this bias.
Open Traveller
View Profile
Inner circle
1087 Posts

Profile of Open Traveller
Man, I have to give you credit. You almost had me doubting myself, until I did a search and quickly read up on learning modes again. I couldn't find a single instance of anyone classifying reading as an auditory activity.

Let me see if I understand you correctly:

Reading is sub-classed under the auditory learning mode if someone reads to me. This is true despite the fact that I'm not reading; I'm listening. Further you contend that this is true even though my listening activity doesn't change whether someone is reading to me, speaking to me, telling me a joke or singing a song. If someone does any of the latter three, it's sub-classed differently than if someone reads to me, despite the fact that my passive activity is precisely the same in all four cases.

I hope I have that right. Apparently, I'm thrown into different learning modes not by what I do, but by what other people do and even if I don't change what I'm doing.

Do I have that clear? I ask because it sounds perfectly wrong to me, and I don't think that's because I don't understand multi-tiered classification schemes, since it's never been a problem for me in the past.

You state that your school's student population exhibits about 40% with learning disabilities. That both surprises and concerns me, because 40% is usually well within the range of what we call normality (you took statistics, right?). So, either there is a problem in the population, the upbringing, the teaching methods or...and this is most likely...with how you define "disability." In any of the cases, I don't find it very germane to our discussing whether or not people should make an extra effort or simply do what's easiest.

Quote:
I see no need to move from a person's easiest learning method to a more difficult one, when learning the same material, unless the goal is to strengthen a weakness capable of improvement.

Okaaaay. Just for fun, let's list all the things you said I said that I never said:

Quote:
So a new learner should choose the method which causes him/her the most difficulty? Guess that is the way to go to increase frustration and reduce the odds of success.

I didn't say that.

Quote:
I have no idea what to make of the notion that knowledge is only worthwhile if hard to obtain.

I never suggested that, either.

Quote:
Thus you infer they should not use the method with which they learn the most readily.

Didn't say anything remotely like that.

And now we have:

Quote:
I see no need to move from a person's easiest learning method to a more difficult one...

That thought had never occurred to me, either.

This whole thing would be much easier on everyone if you'd pay attention. I never suggested moving from a person's easiest learning method to a more difficult one. All I said was we shouldn't stay only with what's most comfortable. You continue your habit of reading things into my words that aren't there. The best learning occurs when more than one mode is used at once and in appropriate degrees. Think of it as a "multi-tiered learning strategy."

Quote:
For some people, it is not possible to decode the words and make sense of it. Trying is useless. You are putting down these people, whether they are the minority or the majority.

I don't know why you say I'm putting down anyone. All I'm suggesting is that there's much to be gained from stretching one's self just a little at a time. This doesn't seem like an insult to me. It's also not some great wisdom; it seems fairly fundamental. Frankly, I'm surprised you'd argue against it.

Quote:
I would advance the thesis that the majority of people learn magic better from personal instruction or DVD instruction (which is personal) than from the written word. I do not believe this thesis is debatable, however you can argue what "better" is (faster, more precise, etc).

I'm not sure what you really mean by "better." Most people find it easier to absorb information from videos than books. Okay. Books require imagination and thinking, and if those aren't part of a person's skill set, they're not. Okay. If they are, though, then books generally produce more impressive outcomes. Personal instruction can beat out both of those -- if you have a good personal instructor. That factor can affect the quality of the outcome pretty strongly.

But where did you read in my comments anywhere in this thread that people should read books over watching videos? That's something else I didn't propose. Here, you seem to be crossing over into conversations you're having with someone else.

But finally, this:
Quote:
Let's imagine a quadriplegic being dumped onto the floor and being told he should exercise his muscles, then he could walk. When speaking of a learning disability, that is an appropriate analogy.

More like a metaphor, really, and a disturbing one. I used a bit of imagery to convey a student who might be overdeveloped in one area and underdeveloped in others. My suggestion was to avoid working only the one area. You, though, apparently prefer to cast your students as completely helpless. Earlier, you wrote that some won't be up to the task and "trying is useless." The first part of that statement is undeniably true; it's the second part that makes me wonder if you should be teaching. Now that I see that you feel comparing them to "quadriplegics" is appropriate, I'm not sure we have much more to discuss. If you truly can't see what's offensive about this, then I'm not sure what to say.

And not that I'm validating your attempt to make a point in any way, but there have been quadriplegics who later learned to walk again...not many, but it's happened, and in every case, they only got there by exercising their muscles.

To all others, many apologies for the various turns in this now-pointless conversation. I find it best to simply not continue.
michaelmagicart
View Profile
Loyal user
254 Posts

Profile of michaelmagicart
Julianna

I believe you are on the right track. You have a great book to begin with and I believe you will have and excellent tutor in your Uncle. You seem willing to practice and that is the most important thing to do. So take your time and do not rush into performing, but do it slowly. I feel the more that you show your Uncle that you are willing to work hard, the more assistance he will give you.

Above all read, as it seems like you enjoy reading.
Julianna
View Profile
New user
78 Posts

Profile of Julianna
I hear you guys talking about different ways of learning and I don't know anything about magic, (yet), but with dance I can tell you that I learn faster by visually seeing someone doing the steps rather than trying to explain them to me. Guess I'll see what happens with magic.

I'm sure everyone is different though.

jp
michaelmagicart
View Profile
Loyal user
254 Posts

Profile of michaelmagicart
Garcia00 and Open Traveller

I believe you both owe this young lady an apology for your rhetorical comments which have nothing to do with "Brand new and don't have a clue", which is the topic of this thread.

Enough said.
Julianna
View Profile
New user
78 Posts

Profile of Julianna
I'm losing track, oh yeah, so how do you guys know which tricks are the good ones? I know that's probably the dumbest question in the world but I can't help myself.

Forgive me for asking if you think it's dumb!

Hi Michael-thanks for the help, but I don't mind listening to a good argument every now and then! The 'young lady' comment just got you points.

jewels
Open Traveller
View Profile
Inner circle
1087 Posts

Profile of Open Traveller
Quote:
On 2008-08-13 19:36, Michaelmagicart wrote:
Garcia00 and Open Traveller

I believe you both owe this young lady an apology for your rhetorical comments which have nothing to do with "Brand new and don't have a clue", which is the topic of this thread.

Enough said.


I already did. Twice.

Thank you.
DStachowiak
View Profile
Inner circle
Baltimore, MD
2158 Posts

Profile of DStachowiak
Quote:
On 2008-08-13 20:01, Julianna wrote:
I'm losing track, oh yeah, so how do you guys know which tricks are the good ones? I know that's probably the dumbest question in the world but I can't help myself.

Forgive me for asking if you think it's dumb!

Hi Michael-thanxs for the help, but I don't mind listening to a good argument every now and then! the young lady comment just got you points.

jewels

Julianna, with RRTCM, I'd suggest starting at the first chapter and working your way through to the end. The reason for this is that each chapter works on a specific skill or sleight, and the later chapters build on what was learned earlier. Each chapter teaches a few tricks that will be within your abilities if you have been working your way through in order, and the fun part is that you always have something to perform, even at the start of your learning process.
Almost all the tricks in RRTCM are excellent, with few exceptions. (I can't think of any duds at the moment, but there are probably one or two)
Don
Woke up.
Fell out of bed.
Dragged a comb across m' head.
michaelmagicart
View Profile
Loyal user
254 Posts

Profile of michaelmagicart
Julianna

My answer would be that a trick is only as good as the performer. The simplest trick in the hands of the right performer can become a miracle. You mentioned two things about yourself. You like to have fun and you take dance. I am assuming you have a bubbly personality, yet the graceful moves of a dancer. Both of these can be incorporated into the way you present your magic, and they will feel natural to you.

Use your imagination to weave a story around what you are doing. Just like learning every step in a dance routine. Then the trick will become "magic".

I was quite happy to hear that your first trick for your Mother amazed her. Believe me your own family is the most difficult to amaze. I would also ask your Uncle for suggestions, I am sure he will be more than willing to help you.
Julianna
View Profile
New user
78 Posts

Profile of Julianna
Hi again magicart, I really get what your saying. Does anyone do magic to music without talking?

I really like these songs (Just Like Heaven) by The Cure
(Short Skirt Long Jacket) by cake
(Never There) by Cake

I know they are older songs, but I still like 'em.

Back to my question though, does anyone do magic to music without talking?

Sorry for getting off track!

jp


Dstach- I see what you are talking about. Each chapter teaches certain movements, and at the end of the chapter it shows some tricks that use those movements.

Thanks for pointing that out, it's kind of like an end to the means, I think!

jp
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » New to magic? » » Brand new and don't have a clue (0 Likes)
 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3~4~5..11~12~13 [Next]
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2021 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.35 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL