Hi all,

I have an idea for an effect, involving hypnosis, and I would like to run it by you all to see if it's possible in the way that I describe it. (It's a card effect, but you won't need to have ANY knowledge of card magic effects/techniques to help me. Even if you despise such effects, please don't run away; as long as you are somewhat knowledgeable in hypnosis, you'll likely be able to assist. Note: I have very little knowledge of hypnosis, so apologies if I get the terms wrong.)

Here's the ideal situation:

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The specator, a female, selects and notes card from the pack (a Queen). I tell the specator that we will use the Queen to represent her.

[Part 1] I begin to induce hypnosis and make the spec. feel tired, but instruct her to keep her eyes open. I then show that the Queen's eyes have closed.

[Part 2] The spectator begins to feel more and more tired, and eventually closes her eyes.

[Part 3] I intstruct her to open her eyes, asks how she feels etc... then tell her to watch as the Queen's eyes also slowly open.

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Issues / Questions:

Is it possible to make a spectator feel tired without closing their eyes, as in Part 1? If so, will they likely be alert enough to register the change?

As I tell the spectator that the Queen represents her - and show that the Queen's eyes have closed - I feel I am making a subtle suggestion that she will do the same. Building on this theory, would it be possible/straightforward/reliable to, in Part 2, subtly get her to close her eyes - without actually telling her to do so? Or would telling her directly that she's going to get so tired that her eyes will close be much simpler? Does it even matter, in terms of performance?

One last concern, much like that of Part 1 - once I have counted/brought her back 'in', might she be too groggy to appreciate the Queen opening its eyes?


Even if you cannot answer all, or any of the issues I brought up, I would still appreciate any thoughts you have to say on this.

Some product recommendations for what I'd like to achieve would be brilliant, too.

I'd really appreciate ANY help anyone could give me.

Thanks.

Hi Hawk Eye,

I think this is a great idea and absolutely definitely you could do and consistently.

You can make the spectators eyes feel tired by simply fixating them and giving the suggestion 'I do not want you to close your eyes yet'. You can also state directly or indirectly what will hapen with their eyes. You can then mirror what you want them to do - i.e they blink you blink, they blink or relax and you say 'Thats Right'.

Eventually they will get the idea and just go inside and close their eyes. They will stay there if you let them know they are doing things right. My only concern with the Queen closing her eyes is they may get rather excited about this and feel compelled to rise up and state - the cards eyes closed'. Not sure who the effect with the queens eyes closing is on? The spectator or the audience watching.

For the eyes opening part, just ensure that your spectaotr is eyes open and locked onto the card and a gentle shake and ping the cards eyes open. I like the fact that this is going to confuse them and likely to be what they comment on. In the offbeat switch it out and toss a regular queen on the table for examination.

With regard to learning patter around the induction look at classic methods of eye fixation and both verbal and non verbal inductions. The so called 'Thats Right' induction will give you some ideas. With regard to getting a card to open and close the eyes the same guy that made 'Decisions' by Mozique would be your man.

Let me now if you have any questions.

Anthony

Anthony,

Thanks for your quick reply.

The effect of the Queen's eyes closing is intended for the spectator herself. Ideally, I would perform this effect one-on-one, or with (at max.) one or two extra audience members on the side (only if they were 'with' the spectator at the time). I want this to be a personal, dramatic piece.

Since the Queen with its eyes closed is such a subtle change from before - and it doesn't happen visually - I would probably have to silently gesture towards the Queen, but let them 'discover it for themselves'. My only concern would be that the spectator might become fully alert upon realising the change, essentially 'losing' the tiredness she previously felt (and possibly not close her eyes of her own accord). Can you shed any more light on this?


Thanks very much for all of your advice thus far, I really appreciate it mate.

If anyone has any thoughts/ideas to add, please go ahead.

Cheers.

Just tell her to close her eyes.

I don't really understand the rational behind the effect.
I am trying to picture how it would affet the audience.
I can't see that it would be a strong effect.

Perhaps I am missing something.

ANT: Just start with them looking directly at the bridge of the queens nose. The startle factor could snap them out of focusing or it could simply increase their fascination. Magnetic fingers or hands with the eyes open, as a simple exercise sometimes has a startling effect but it also fascinates.

My advice is to make sure the eyes close with suggestion, the queens eyes closing are just small part of how you will deliver the suggestion.

Ant

I once again find myself with MP... I just am not following this or something...

Yup, totally with mindpunisher on this one, I don't get it.

Thank you for your thoughts, Anthony.

mindpunisher, Nongard1, Lemniscate:

I thought the premise was rather simple - see OP. While as of now it is just a rough idea, this wouldn't be designed to be performed standalone; rather as one effect in a larger routine.

I disagree that it wouldn't be a strong effect.

Any constructive criticism?

This is the bit that's throwing me. Are you saying you SUGGEST it to her that the Queen's eyes are closed and she confirms it to your audience?

OR

Are you saying that the actual Queen in the card changes?

If it's the latter it's too magicky and if it's the former then I'm not too impressed. But let me say quickly Hawk-eye that this could be my fault for failing to understand something and if so I apologise.

bobser

I am not a critic, I just don't understand.
What is the effect of having a person close the eyes?
Unless fo course you are doing eye-catalpsy and having them lock the eyes together unable to open them.
If you are having the queen in the card change, from open eyed to close eyed, why have the hypnosis at all?
I just don't even understand the effect you are after. Once I understand I can perhaps give some suggestions.

OK, allow me to clarify.

The Queen is meant to represent the spectator.

The spectator begins to feel tired, but is instructed not to close her eyes; then it is revealed that the Queen's eyes have actually, physically closed. It's printed right there on the card, which she can feel if she likes (assuming that won't snap her out of her tiredness). Seeing as the spectator knows the Queen is meant to represent her, I feel this doubles as a subtle suggestion that she should also close her eyes, which she does (probably after some further fixating and coaxing, etc.)

I then 'wake her up' after leaving her in that state for about half a minute; once her eyes are open, I have her focus on the card, and show the Queen's eyes physically, visually open.

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bobser, it's meant to be magicky - I'm a magician and not a hypnotist by nature.

The magical effect and handling itself is pretty much set in stone. I'm just working out a different presentation idea for it, and I like the 'metaphor' of the Queen's eyes closing, then the spectator doing the same, without me telling her to. I knew the use of hypnosis techniques would be one of the best ways to accomplish this, so that's why I'm toying with bringing hypnosis into the performance.


Hopefully that clears things up. Please, give me your thoughts.

Hmmmm My first instinct is to also concur with MP - Just tell her to close her eyes.

But - I realize you're going for an effect that the card Queen is somehow 'tied' intrinsicly to the girl...

Instead of hypnosis, per se, I'd probably go with more of a "voodoo" theme to pull this one off...

I think the patter used and the 'representation' aspects would be much easier and make 'relatively' more sense that way than it would with hypnosis....

Check out this card (give lines about ancient voodoo representation, perhaps lineage relationships, etc - do you feel the connection - I can feel it from here - hold the card and let's see what happens - maybe close your eyes and concentrate - WOW! you won't believe what just happened to the card - the Queen has closed her eyes too! - open yours really quick and check - girl does and is amazed - now close them again quick - wow - the Queen closed her eyes again too! (girl does not check this time, or maybe she does) - and then girl opens her eyes and the Queen's pop open at the same time... ??

Not sure how your 'trick' works, but perhaps it could be made to function along those voodoo-ish relationship lines... ?

IMHO using hypnosis would be probably be too time consuming and out of sync with the intentions of the effect.

- Just my two cents.

Good luck!

HypnoScriptoHottie,

Thanks very much for your response.

I don't want to sound ungrateful, but the voodoo theme you described doesn't really fit my style.

When I perform, my presentation must be logical and believeable. Yes, I sometimes do the 'impossible', but my perorming style is such that when the 'impossible' has occurred, I don't attempt to rationalise it. (I cannot stand, for instance, ambitious card routines where the performer claims that 'the heat' or something equally ridiculous is causing the card to rise. In fact, I avoid the ACR at all costs.)

I don't think a voodoo theme is what I'm looking for. Thank you for posting your ideas, though. I appreciate it!

Well, I'm with HypnoScriptHottie here. I think she's on the money and can imagine it working rather well with the correct presentation. I see nothing wrong with instant stooging. In fact it's takes a good pro with b-lls to pull it off correctly.
I know you said: "When I perform, my presentation must be logical and believable", but to me, that's exactly what good mentalism (or hypnosis)achieves, whereas magic simply is NOT meant to be logical OR believable surely?

A note on the whole idea of a playing card representing someone.

For a different effect, I once toyed with the idea of handing the deck to the spectator and having them choose a card that they think represents them.

I like the element of it that (I believe) few would think of the 5 of Clubs or other number card as a good representation of their personality. And with females, they certainly wouldn't choose a King or a Jack. I think they would zero in on a Queen straight away.

Some of you may think that to you (and maybe the spectator), suddenly stating that their 'randomly' chosen card will represent them is a strange notion. If they are allowed to choose a card they think represents themselves, do you feel this rationalises the effect suitably?

I would also love to hear others' thoughts on whether or not revealing that the Queen's eyes have closed would 'break' the spectator out of their sudden tiredness, and whether you feel that after I 'wake them up', they'd be too groggy to properly focus on the Queen's eyes opening.

Cheers.

You're probably right that that's the standard definition. However, it's for this reason that I don't like the idea of categorising performance too much. Much of my magic has a mental theme, yet I feel the 'mentalist' and 'magician' arguments are petty and trivial. It's the performance that counts, not what it's called. Hence why I use the term 'magician', a term that explains, in a word, the nature of what I do.

I don't want to insult my audience's intelligence, which is what I feel I would be doing if I used the voodoo presentation.

It would take too long to explain in such a medium as this as to how and where I agree and disagree with you. This is why it's always such a pleasure when me meet each other in person and discuss further old posted topics where we can say: "Ah so THAT'S what you meant when you posted that comment". But I will say that as far as the layperson is concerned you are of course correct that in that particular situ it certainly doesn't matter what it's called. I was merely referring to the 'feel' of whether I want them to consider whether they're watching a magic show or a mentalist show. I do hope this makes sense?

bobser

I understand what you mean, and there are some routines which I perform that could be classed as 'pure magic' or 'pure mentalism'. However, I try to use labels strictly to identify myself and to give a rough idea of my area of performance; I'm wary of constricting the flow of creative ideas. And as you noted, it doesn't really matter to the spectators - therefore, the two themes are interchangeable.

Come to Australia some day, and we can continue this discussion. Or perhaps we could meet somewhere in the middle. I hear Saudi Arabia is beautiful this time of year...

In the meantime, I'd welcome any thoughts on the presentation I've...er...presented!

I think the concept if I understand it could be a good display. I would suggest using an oversized card and place it on a stand of some kind this way you can control the height of the card. Using this to your advantage you can trigger the tired sleepy feeling through a fixation above the line of sight. I would personally take it further and induce a full deep trance state as a part of the show.
I would suggest that you learn how to do a proper induction and how it works first.

If it's for anything but closeup or personal one-on-one work then you do need to use a large card that your audience can see, but then that might lose the audience in terms of the effect if she's not actually hypnotized (since you told her to keep her eyes open, unless she closes her eyes with the card).

I have done something similar to this with hypnosis. I like Paula's voodoo context as well but I did it as a demonstration in "experiential hypnosis" (although I do have voodoo trance effects that I perform in various shows) . . . I didn't use a card as I'm not a "magician". Instead I used a doll (no need to gaff a card as it is extremely easy to find a doll that will open and close it's eyes. It is very easy to suggest to a person to imagine a connection to the card or doll and then to imagine the connection becoming more powerful with each and every breath. For the doll, I just had her imagine the eyes beginning to get heavier and heavier as they began to flutter (this uses both eye fixation and fatigue) and then as I noted the watering and fluttering, I slowly tilted the doll so that the lids began to close. When the doll closed it's eyes so did the girl and I immediately deepened. I then had her open her eyes and maintained the connection with the suggestion that "whatever happens to the doll, you feel" and then I did some tickling bits with a feather on various parts of the body, some arm catalepsy as I moved the dolls limbs, and "other" stuff. Basically, at that point it is obviously a more typical voodoo doll gag for stage hypnosis. Obviously, in a family show the doll bit is family-oriented while with a risque show one can have some more interesting accoutrement added to the mix (but keep it simple, visual, and NEVER aggressive or penetrative or BAD THINGS will happen).

If your bit is only about the card and the eye closure, you haven't really built enough context or action to really sell it. The effect itself could work perfectly well with the right sort of patter (am I to assume you are talking about an actual gaffe here where the eyes of the card do close? - if not, and if it's only imaginative then it's only good for close up and is a trance experience but needs something to happen AFTER the trance that uses it, just trance alone is not enough, there needs to be utility to it and effect . . . see my webpage for the Tarot Trance process which could be adapted in this case, except as an identification process).

What is the payoff to your effect? What is the goal beyond the steps of the effect itself and the resulting response you are after?

All the best,
Brian