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SeanScottMagic
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Payne
People will tune into watch magic be exposed before they will watch bad magic. Ask FOX network about this phenomenon. A second series will be out soon for us to combat. The example on the Brit's AGT of the accidental duck escape really says it all. This performer's website shows quite an array of professionally built magic in his arsenal, but he goes on network TV with the most homemade looking duck cannon/covered table I've ever seen. One might think it was made to do a job once. . On the other side of the stage is a professionally built cage production. If this doesn't sell you, then nothing will. This screams foul.

Keep in mind this is Simon Cowell's brainchild. What is he best known for??? Controversy maybe? He understands the more you shake it up, the more it will bubble over. American Idol would be boring without him and all the horrid auditions before the actual contest.

If you need a reason for Martin to willing choose excommunication, maybe look at some of the background on him. In my humble opinion, mistreating wild animals shows irresponsibility and serious moral "underground". If he'll do this to defenseless creatures, then why do you have a difficult time believing he wouldn't expose a trick for personal gain? To me, it doesn't sound like the guy had a lot going for him.

Sean
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Christopher Starr
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In the end, we are left with two sides: One side says it was a cluster !#^*, and the other side side that says it was an intentional exposure. It is obvious to me that we're never going to have a consensus of opinion regarding this "performance".
Payne
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Quote:
On 2008-08-22 19:27, SeanScottMagic wrote:

The example on the Brit's AGT of the accidental duck escape really says it all. This performer's website shows quite an array of professionally built magic in his arsenal, but he goes on network TV with the most homemade looking duck cannon/covered table I've ever seen. One might think it was made to do a job once. . On the other side of the stage is a professionally built cage production. If this doesn't sell you, then nothing will. This screams foul.



Yet this youtube video shows him using the same cannon (or at least one built on the same design) successfully in a show. So it appears it is one of his regular performance pieces and not some prop supplied to him by BGT.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xifP-uPH0wQ&feature=related

Just because mistakes happen doesn't make them conspiracies.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
Lance Richardson
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I am not saying it was or was not a staged exposure just that something did not feel right about the event. I hope for all of us it was an unhappy accident but I would be ignorant to think what happens on TV is always what you see.
We all know the WWF finally admitted there events were fake when people started getting suspicious about the story lines and etc. We all know Mark Burnett finally had to admit (due to a court case) Survivor was re-taping events, recreating events they did not catch and that he faked part of the reality show by using body doubles to re-shoot various scenes.

Someone asked why would AGT expose magic, ratings!!!!!!!!!!!!
Remember we live in an age where people have a VERY short attention span so TV shows need to pick material that’s hot and Scandalous to fit into the few seconds they call a teaser that will keep us hooked through the commercials or hook us to tune in the next night. Also these shows need other entertainment show like E! News, the Daily 10, the Soup and others to use the crazy content in there show thus promoting the original and bring in more ratings so they can charge more $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ for ad time.

But why would a person allow themselves to be used in some crazy stunt? Exposure my friend exposure; that 10 minutes of fame gets them noticed by people on the street, in clubs, restaurants and yes eve gets those gigs for just being the guy who did - fill in the blank.
Good or bad it gets them noticed and that’s priceless in today world, just look at Paris Hilton.

In the end who knows, maybe David Martin has been inactive on the magic scene and he was a easy target for AGT or maybe he just @&^%$# up, either way he got his 10 minutes of fame and AGT got a great 15 seconds for there teaser.

Lance
SeanScottMagic
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Payne

If it appears to be a regular prop, did he have this piece before the show? Also, I'm curious if this is a marketed prop, or if he made it.

Sean
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Christopher Starr
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I really wish that Charlotte Pendragon would pop back into the forum. She could clear this whole farce up as she and her husband were standing right there.
SeanScottMagic
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I know a better way.

Sean
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Blair Marshall
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Sean,

Did you read the reat of the thread?????

Answers to your last post are there.

B
Terry Holley
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Quote:
On 2008-08-22 22:11, SeanScottMagic wrote:
Payne

If it appears to be a regular prop, did he have this piece before the show? Also, I'm curious if this is a marketed prop, or if he made it.

Sean


Here you go:

http://www.daveallenmagic.com/index.htm

You can ask him yourself.

Terry
Co-author with illusionist Andre' Kole of "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena."
SeanScottMagic
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Blair-

Huh?

Terry-

Why would I ask him, why would he tell me? Why don't I ask Dave Martin if he intentionally exposed Shadow Vision. You might make a bad detective. This thread is not about Dave Allan, it's about Dave Martin. It's was my response to Payne's comment. Let Payne ask him.

Sean
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Terry Holley
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Quote:
On 2008-08-22 23:04, SeanScottMagic wrote:

Terry-

Why would I ask him, why would he tell me? Why don't I ask Dave Martin if he intentionally exposed Shadow Vision. You might make a bad detective. This thread is not about Dave Allan, it's about Dave Martin. It's was my response to Payne's comment. Let Payne ask him.

Sean


Sean:

Why so defensive?

Although you state, "This thread is not about Dave Allan, it's about Dave Martin", I believe you were the first one to bring Dave Allen into the discussion. Here's what you wrote on August 16:

"If you think this is some kind of conspiracy, then please view the link of the Brit's America's Got Talent and see how choreographed you feel the "mistake" is?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlPRaQpdqMc&feature=related "

And again you posted on August 17:

"Look at the duck cannon & box. What about that homemade prop suggests the duck was going to completely vanish? There was no way he was going to walk away from the cannon and give the impression the duck was gone. Looks like that prop was designed around a flawed vanish. Add to that on the other side of the stage a beautifully made cage production. One was made for a magic trick and one was made to do something else. Take a closer look."

So again, even though you say this thread is about David Martin, you were he one who brought tha veiled accusations against Dave Allen.

Could Allen's "double duck" exposure routine be part of his comedy act? I guess it could be. If it is, I expect others have seen it and if asked, Dave would admit that it's part of the act.

Although you state that Payne should be the one to ask Dave Allen about his props, you were the one who asked the question about Allen's props, not Payne. So as I stated, if you really want to know, you can ask Dave Allen. After all, you did state, "I'm curious if this is a marketed prop, or if he made it."


Terry
Co-author with illusionist Andre' Kole of "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena."
SeanScottMagic
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Terry

C'mon, get a clue. This thread is about Shadow Vision, A.K.A. Dave Martin, as they all have been. Dave Allen was brought up as a previous example of possible prearrangement by BGT, lending possible supporting evidence to the prearrangement by AGT. Bla, bla, bla......

Your point on the double duck exposure isn' t conclusive by far. If I seem defensive, which I don't think I am, it's probably fatigue from reading posts stating the same tired approaches to clearing up the issue, example; "Why don't you ask him?" If the two men are guilty of pre-arrangement in any form, I don't see them accomodating requests for information. Honestly, do you? I'm am really not trying to argue, draw out or sound like the authority on any of this, but I am hoping to get some input that really leads somewhere. I have learned things from individuals here, including David Martin's assistant who emailed me. I am not denying any point you are making, just have kind of been there, done that.

Thanks,
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haywire
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Unless you were there and have conclusive proof that he was paid to purposely expose the illusion, I don't think its a valid argument.

Most of the evidence points to his simply being totally unprepared to perform this illusion properly. We heard from someone who knows who rented him the illusion here. We heard he practiced it for 15 minutes in a warehouse then loaded it on a truck bound for agt. Its much more likely that he went into AGT with little rehearsal, with a rented prop and that itself was the cause of the exposure.

What is known is that he exposed the illusion. Whatever the reason, he exposed
the illusion on national television due to his own irresponsibility. Had this been someone who previously displayed good magic ethics I'm sure we could all forgive this blunder, but considering all that is known of his past I'm doubtful anyone will be so forgiving.

I think his past treatment of his animals and his taking down his website once people starting questioning the claims he makes is far more troubling than his exposing an illusion.

Could he have been paid to purposely expose the illusion? Sure that MAY have happened but unless you have real have proof,you are assaulting his already badly damaged character. I think he has enough problems without people speculating such an unethical thing about him without any positive proof.

I hope he has learned his lesson well and will not perform any illusions in the future without proper rehearsal. While I was initially very sad and angry about his mistreatment of his animals, I hope he learned his lesson there too and will
treat any animals he has in the future with real respect. I hope he won't own any animals he can not afford to properly house and care for in the future.

After initially being very ****ed off about this guy...
I really wish him the best trying to recover from the mess he has created for himself, I really do. Whats that saying? "There but for the grace of god go I." A really bad night can happen to any of us. I've seen total pros have really awful nights, as bad or worse than this, but they recovered and moved on, some to great heights.

Just imagine how this guy must feel, his whole "career" washed away in 5 minutes on national television. Whatever the cause, his fault or not, its really a shame
what happened. If he simply took responsibility for the exposure, and apologised to the magic community, especially those that own the illusion, that would probably be a good first step at healing and his being able to move on.

If he never does so, he will always just be that guy who was awful on AGT. His unwillingness to accept responsibility will show his character is unchanged from his past ethical problems. Maybe he should put his website back up, with a public statement or apology being on the main page. Hopefully, he'll leave out any claims on his new website which are not true or just badly exaggerated.

I'd be the first to plop down 25$ or whatever it cost to go see his "new show", just to support his getting back up after getting knocked down pretty bad. Never would I do so if he didn't accept the responsibility for what happened. IF he accepted responsibility for what happened, I think we should all support his next step, if not, then of course no one should support him at all.

Steven
Lance Richardson
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Great post Steven, and on that note I say we retire this thread and move onto a new hot topic. Yes, I agree "There but for the grace of god go I."

Lance
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I honestly think a professional, performing magician making a living thru magic would not purposely screw up on TV, no matter what the price is. Though the fumble may seem choreographed, my honest opinion is that it is not. However, these things go on air unedited for the sake of boosting ratings for the broadcast station. To any network, the ratings count the most.

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Cant believe this has gone on for 6 pages.... and some refuse to believe it wasnt lack of rehearsal and just plain sh+tty tallent. Its not a conspiracy... but if you want one, here ya go!

Sean = David M.
Christopher Starr
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Quote:
On 2008-08-23 04:59, haywire wrote:
{snip}Most of the evidence points to his simply being totally unprepared to perform this illusion properly. We heard from someone who knows who rented him the illusion here. We heard he practiced it for 15 minutes in a warehouse then loaded it on a truck bound for agt. Its much more likely that he went into AGT with little rehearsal, with a rented prop and that itself was the cause of the exposure.

{snip}
I think his past treatment of his animals and his taking down his website once people starting questioning the claims he makes is far more troubling than his exposing an illusion.

{snip}
After initially being very ****ed off about this guy...
I really wish him the best trying to recover from the mess he has created for himself, I really do.... I'd be the first to plop down 25$ or whatever it cost to go see his "new show", just to support his getting back up after getting knocked down pretty bad. Steven


...It will be a very dark and lonely theatre Steven. Bring a friend.

This is one guy that should NOT be attempting to perform magic. Ever.

My 2˘

Chris
Terry Holley
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Quote:
On 2008-08-21 01:41, SeanScottMagic wrote:
BTW

DAY 2 and http://www.davidmartinrocks.com is still down.

Sean


Back up!

http://www.davidmartinrocks.com/

Terry
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reedrc
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Why is it everyone has to post their picture with David Copperfield on their business websites? Who cares?
got a meet and greet with David. Big woop.
Kind Regards

Ryan C. Reed
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designer, director, theatrical consultant, digital wizard, magic impresario, wonder aficionado, Illusioneer & dream architect.

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David Todd
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Quote:
On 2008-08-23 14:37, reedrc wrote:
Why is it everyone has to post their picture with David Copperfield on their business websites? Who cares?
got a meet and greet with David. Big woop.


That is odd , isn't it ? I've noticed the same thing on many websites. Even the meet-and-greet fan photo ops with "lesser" magical celebrities or the various old rockers . Is this sort of photo supposed to be the proof that this person is an insider and a player in the industry? It smacks of a fan page , not a professional web site. Nothing wrong with being a fan , nothing wrong with getting your picture snapped with one of your heroes . But what does it say about the person as a performer or as a professional businessman ? Zip. Nothing. I guess in the same way that this person has photos on his website posing with Lions and Tigers is supposed to give the impression that he performs with big cats in a magic act like S & R or Rick Thomas.
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