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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » You Oughta Be In Pictures » » Youell's on YouTube and Hell Has Frozen Over (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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The Amazing Noobini
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Before I knew anything about magic at all things like palming was very abstract to me. I wouldn't have known what to look for. Maybe a palm happened in the middle of an overhand shuffle or while you were dealing cards to different players. People know that cards can be "palmed" but I think they have a cartoonish image of someone arriving at a casino with two aces already palmed and two more sticking out of their left sleeve.

I believe it is fairly clear to anyone who has seen this video roughly what to look for now, how both hands hold the deck. It shows that a palm is a true actual thing that can happen to them. The next magician they see, they will sit and look for possible palm moments. Because a palm like this is a cool thing. You think so too or you wouldn't have wanted to show it to people in its pure form like this.

Myself I would prefer if the public couldn't actually see a palm with their own eyes like this at all. Someone could easily figure out how to do a palm of some wobbling sorts after watching it too, but what I feel is the problem point is that they can see that it can actually be done like this.

So will I loose any sleep over it? Nah, the internet is drowning in information on anything anyway. Since your video has no rave music, few YouTubers would bother to watch it to the end anyway. But I do think it is a bit unnecessary. Posting it like this in this setting makes it look like you want to show off to us rather than publish in the more traditional manner.

Web hosting is very cheap. I'm unemployed and even I manage to keep several sites and domains going without effort. If you are to use the internet to present your ideas to other magicians, then the professional setting for that would be your own site or at least a magic site of some sort and not a public entertainment media mostly aimed at kids.
"Talk about melodrama... and being born in the wrong part of the world." (Raf Robert)
"You, my friend, have a lot to learn." (S. Youell)
"Nonsensical Raving of a lunatic mind..." (Larry)
thepspdope
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Quote:
On 2008-09-01 03:34, Steven Youell wrote:
...if the result of the sleight is NOT shown, then it wouldn't be exposure, right? In other words, the exposure comes from showing the cards in the hand AFTER the palm, right?


First off, really nice palming Steven - now that's a quality video.

I feel that the exposure does come from your showing the cards after you've palmed them, so maybe we need to think about ways to eliminate that exposure.

Maybe this depends on who your target audience is.

If you posted the same video but WITHOUT revealing the cards, then how would people react? They would have to take your word for it that the cards were truly palmed.

If I saw that it was Steven Youell's vid then I would be very inclined to believe it. If a YouTube-Kiddie sees this, and believes that you did palm them, then maybe he will seek out how the sleight is done (hopefully with suggestions from you) and will benefit greatly from proper material.

And then there will be the other 99% who will never believe that you palmed them, and they will no doubt tell you very politely via their comments...ahem Smile

So there would be no loss to anyone. I only thought of this after watching your video, so it's not had a lot of thought time yet. Just maybe something to ponder.

Subscribed Smile
- just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they're not after you!
Paul
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RE: "how would you reach them and counter their ideas of what good sleight of hand should look like? "

I think the best way would be to develop some kind of system in which when they pressed an "upload" button they received an electric shock.

Re: "if the result of the sleight is NOT shown, then it wouldn't be exposure, right?"

I'm old school, so I'm of the opinion the less known/shown the better, and things shown for free are often dismissed as not having much value or are to be collected and freely circulated to anyone. I'd guess most youtube posting magicians are teenage hobbyists that will have moved away from magic within a year or two onto something else, but will still be happy to audibly voice what they have learnt when they see other magicians performing later.

BUT, I will also share with you that John Carney shares your same viewpoint in his lecture to lay people wherein various gimmicks and coin sleights are demonstrated but not within the context of routines. I felt a little uneasy with that although I do appreciate the thinking. Having got out of your chair to go to a lecture (whether it was free or not) to me demonstrates a little more curiosity than secret collecting web surfs.

Perhaps whenever we see bad magic on Youtube we can post a link to a good performance somewhere saying, "This is what good magic should look like" but if you go looking for bad magic on the web it could be a lifetime job as its never ending. And so many feel the need to teach you what they've badly shown rather than just leave it as a performance.

Trying to counter this on the web is a noble thought but at the same tim you may as well pee into the wind Smile

Paul.

p.s. That is a lovely palm Steve!
Mike Powers
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Hi Steve,

I would have to join the folks who have taken the view that this excellent video is not a good one to post on youtube. It's not a magic trick, it's a supposedly secret technique, albeit one that a number of laypeople have heard of viz. palming. It either validates what laypeople think they know or shows them that magicians can secretly steal cards from the deck into their palm. My view is that it’s best that laypeople not have this experience.

As someone pointed out, a layperson intent on discovering secrets has many resources on the internet, youtube being the primary one. I think we should minimize these resources.

I have a number of videos on youtube. They are demonstrations of tricks from my Card Corner column in the Linking Ring. No explanations are given. I also have a password protected area on my site that teaches some basic and intermediate moves of card magic. The password is available to Linking Ring subscribers.

It's likely that the password has been given out to non-subscribers. It's possible that some laypeople have learned it and have looked at some of these videos. If that has occurred it's certainly not on any large scale.

I think that the difference between posting a move that basically shows a secret magic technique on youtube and keeping it on a private site is like the difference between printing up the move on paper and keeping it in your store for people to come in a get (private site) and putting a stack of manuscripts out in front of the store for any passerby to take and read (youtube). Obviously not every passerby will take one, just like not every youtube subscriber will see the move video. But if there's a stack of manuscripts for free in a very public place with a picture of someone with a deck of cards in hand, lots of people will pick it up. Their experience will either be, "wow - it's amazing how those magicians can steal cards off the deck into their palm." or "so that's what that palming thing looks like." Either way, I think that these lay people have become more likely to burn the magician's hands and looks for moves instead of just kicking back and enjoying the show. That can't be good.

Why not just keep this type of video on a private site? It's far less likely that laypeople will see it. Just because some layperson intent on discovering secrets might find the site (although I think it's going to be rare) doesn't negate the argument that youtube is wide open and a private site is not. MANY more people will find it on youtube.

I think youtube is fine for tricks and private sites, preferably with passwords, are best for secrets and moves.

I believe that it's possible to set up a private space on youtube that's only accessible with a password. I'm not sure how workable this is but it might be worth checking out. The password could be posted in the secret sessions area.

Final question: Would it be good to post a youtube video of an excellent double lift technique? The magician shows the ace of spades, turns it down and then deals to the table. S/he then shows the card on the table to be the queen of hearts. This is likely already exposed on youtube. I'm not going to add another one. It's almost better if it's demonstrated poorly. Then maybe laypeople believe they'd see it in the real world when they wouldn't with good technique.

Just some thoughts...

Mike
Paul
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Note to moderators, can you please put my name instead of Mike's on the last post?
I wish I'd said that, it certainly crystalised some of my thoughts in a great way.

Great post, Mike.

Paul.
abc
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I am assuming that the two main choices here are between putting videos on your won site as opposed to youtube.
My opinion for what it is worth is this. The people who actually purchase from you is a very niche market. Your time and effort is better applied by directing your resources at targeting your niche market. Which of the people who view your demo on youtube would really visit your site or any other that sells anything and purchase it. They are much more likely to search on a P2P site and see if they can download it. The problem for the niche market now is that your routines and ideas are available everywhere and while they may be excellent (which they are) they would now have less value.
Do I think 30 bucks for advanced card techniques is too much. Well, almost no laymen have seen it, I know it is going to be good when I get it and I know it is workable material. If 2 of those 6 effects were viewed often on youtube and it may include a demo a two, I probably would still not consider 30 bucks too much, but I may rather just watch it on youtube. We cannot really ask you to offer us the information exclusively as in a way it belongs to you (your ideas) but it would be much more valuable for a selected few if less people had access to it.
Just my opinion.
Scott Fridinger
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I am nobody important, but I would like to give my opinion here.

First, let us look at the Audience that Steve is trying to get to, the YouTube Magicians. If he was to put a private site up or even a the Magic Video Depot, these folks would most likely not get the message. He isn't doing this for "us", those who already know all the resources out there.

Second, as far as him putting a demonstration of a technique on an Entertainment site, I would ask were the uproar was when the movie Shade was released, with the exposure of the gambling techniques during the credits? Shade even used a glass table, so more of the work could be seen.

What I think one must remember is that this is a demonstration of a technique from a magician's perspective. We are watching a snapshot of the hands performing a move. No performer would be performing a palming technique in such a manner to present such a snapshot to an audience, one would hope, so any "laymen" that sees this will not be able to translate it in a real world performance, where body language and direction are present.

Just because people know there is a palm, and may even know how to do a palm, doesn't mean they can see it happen, when done properly. How many people have been able to fry a spectator with a TT, even after the spectator has said, my son has a TT he got in a magic kit.

I don't see the problem with the material Steven has presented, for this particular audience.
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tgold65
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I think that we overestimate how many laypeople spend their time poking around youtube looking for the secrets of magic. Most of the people looking at the magic trick revealed are other magicians. Most people are on Youtube looking for things they care about, and not that many people who are not interested in learning magic are going to spend the effort to learn what the search term shodl be to then find out the exposed effect. So the concern about exposure is simply overblown when it comes to youtube.

While the amount of exposure is overblown, that is not to say that there isn't a problem with it especially when a complete hack exposes someone elses routine.

That said, I don't think what Steve has done really exposes anything. First, to a non-magician, just how he gets the cards into his right hand will not be obvious. So while this video might be usefull to magicians, it isn't very useful to laypeople. Also, because there is no context for the move, a lay person would not know when to look for this move being done within a full routine. So even knowing that a move exists still is not nearly enough to expose the use of that move within an overall effect.

In the end, 99% of the people who will ever see this video will be other magicians and if it helps them see how the move should visually look, then you have done a great job of advancing the quality of magic out there.
MickeyPainless
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It has been suggested that Steven not show the reveal and that would make it ok some how?!?!? Show the 4 of a kind, return face down to top of pack, square up, end of video! Hmmmmmmmmm!

What about Forte's 4 King video where he displays his ability to control the cards. He states he will use a 2nd, bottom or center deal. They even show it in slow mo and the narrator or Steve tells what he's doing! Do you walk away from that display any closer to being able to perform these sleights or are you inspired to seek further education on the matter?

We may know that Steven is palming off the 4 of a kind but is the method exposed? No, I don't think it is! Does it inspire me to seek instruction from Steven? Yep it does!

As to the matter of making these videos available via a private or password protected site, sure that works! Bottom line, I really doubt that a layman seeing this video is going to cause any problems and the simple fact that it will take time, dedication and a lot of hard work WILL eliminate most people in general including a large percentage of self proclaimed card workers!

As always, just my personal opinion!

Mick
MickeyPainless
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It seems that Dinger and Tgold were typing similar thoughts at the same time I was!
CamisBoss
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Amazing video Steve. But who is your intended audience? Us magicians? If so, you should probably limit the audience to that, by posting it on Magic Video Depot. If your intended audience is the layman, then the move should be shown in the context of a routine.
garcia00
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Quote:
On 2008-09-01 02:42, Roger Kelly wrote:

I agree that the method is not tipped but there is blatant acknowledgement that there's actually no magic and is nothing more than an example of very clever sleight of hand.



So let me get this right. You are advancing the thesis that some spectators believe there is "real magic"? And that seeing videos such as these will cause these rubes to no longer believe?

I'm not buying it. The sleight was perfectly performed and is a great reference tool for those trying to perfect it. The rubes who beleive in real magic will never find it, and if so, will not believe it.

The problem with YouTube is not videos like this, but blatant exposure, both on purpose and due to ineptitude.
wsduncan
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I honestly don’t know what you folks think “exposure” is. The folks who are saying it’s not exposure seem to think that it not exposure because he doesn’t teach his technique, which is simply wrong.

The Masked Magician didn’t teach anyone how to do the illusions he exposed, he simply showed how they worked: exposing where there girl hid while the box was cut in half, for example. If you can’t see how Steven’s video is exactly like that you must be dazzled by Steven’s charm and not seeing clearly.

Let me ask you this: if I put a video on YouTube showing a half dollar on my open palm, and then slapped my hand down on the table and it changed to an English Penny, then put the coin on my fingers, closed them and showed the half dollar on my palm, and titled the video “Copper/Silver Coin” would you consider that exposure? How about if Steven did it?

Sheesh.
wsduncan
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Quote:
On 2008-09-01 12:36, MickeyPainless wrote:
We may know that Steven is palming off the 4 of a kind but is the method exposed? No, I don't think it is! Does it inspire me to seek instruction from Steven? Yep it does!

OK, now I get it. He's not exposing his "method” so he’s not exposing? That's not important. He is exposing the existence of a secret “device.” Just as turning over a shell coin to expose the recess is exposure, even if you don’t show how to use the thing. Once a layman has that information, they will keep it for life.

If you think they won’t try this experiment: show someone the video, wait six months and then do Card to Pocket for them and offer them a dollar they can tell you how it was done. Even if you do Carlyle’s Homing Card, which is constructed to cancel the idea of palming, I guarantee you they’ll say you “palmed” the card, and that will be enough of an explanation for them.

It doesn’t matter one bit if laymen don’t know where his fingers are held, or what pressures to apply. Laymen don’t care about that stuff anyway. Laymen only seek “answers” to remove the mystery. Once they know specifically what something looks like it gives them the out that removes all mystery from the magic.

Simon Aronson once suggested that it is not enough for them to not know how the magic happened; they must know it is not possible for it to happen.
Roger Kelly
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Hi garcia00

I wasn't asking you or anyone to 'buy it' but yes, pretty much, that was what I was alluding to. (The wonder factor particularly.) Call me old fashioned, but I still like to perform to those who, whether they 'believe' or not, would like to be 'mystified.' I simply argue that this kind of 'exposure' does not help the cause for those of us who perform and care for the perception of the spectator.

I repeatedly stated that it was just an opinion and I made no attempt to draw a comparison with other examples. And I think that Steven has accepted mine and other similar views for what it's worth. The opposite view still outweighs mine and I can live wih that.

For the record, I know of several folk who 'believe' and I don't want to be anywhere near anything that shatters anyone's illusions! But all this is coming from someone who wouldnt accept that Mr Claus didn't visit me bang on time ever year for about nine years! Incidentally, I don't perform for children, so I consider I have to work doubly hard to keep an adult audience 'believing'! (Oh no - What have I said? Another whole new topic! Smile )
wsduncan
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Quote:
On 2008-08-31 17:15, Steven Youell wrote:
The quality of the magic/sleights done on YouTube is indicative to me that most of those people don't know what this stuff is supposed to look like. So although you COULD consider this exposure, it might actually HELP prevent exposure from sleights performed very, very badly. Additionally posting these on a web page would still make the videos available to almost anyone unless I password protect them.

So I'm not sure if the benefits to the magic community (and me) outweigh the negatives or not-- but I do know that it's not as simple problem as it seems. So I am willing to listen to other ideas.

You cannot possibly stop people from posting bad videos on YouTube. People do it for the same reason they tag overpasses with graffiti: a pathetic need for attention.

Bad technique on YouTube makes it easier to do good magic for folks because they think that’s what sleight of hand looks like, and that they can spot it. The bad videos on YouTube don’t hurt magic half as much as proof these things can be deceptive.

Putting videos on a website devoted to magic is one thing. If someone visits there it’s because they are interested in magic.

I’ve already explained how to do this with my example of the Diagonal Palm Shift demo. If someone is watching your video to see how something is supposed to look they already know how it’s supposed to be done, or they wouldn’t’ be looking for the video that demonstrates it.

Years ago someone asked about Arthur Finleys’ version of the DPS from the then out of print Vernon book. I posted two videos: the Erndase handling, and the Finley one. I explainations, just video of me putting a card into the pack and squaring it. As the person who asked already knew where the card was, because he’d discussed the move but not seen it, I didn’t need to expose anything.
jcards01
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"If you think they won’t try this experiment: show someone the video, wait six months and then do Card to Pocket for them and offer them a dollar they can tell you how it was done. Even if you do Carlyle’s Homing Card, which is constructed to cancel the idea of palming, I guarantee you they’ll say you “palmed” the card, and that will be enough of an explanation for them."

I can also guarantee you they will say you palmed the card having never seen this clip. Palming is folklore and most laymen give you credit for it even if you can't palm a lick.
Jimmy 'Cards' Molinari
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wsduncan
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Jimmy,
I don't know what folks are like in Chicago, but I've been doing the Carlyle routine for over twenty years and I've never been told I 'palmed' the card.
michaelmagicart
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Let me state that I see nothing wrong with this video being on YouTube. It is no different than a magic demonstrator doing an effect without revealing the how to.

If you have a fear that someone might duplicate it, then you need to Google Erdnase and examine the over 493 entries on Erdnase, many of which are blatant exposure, which are poorly done exposures by amateurs.

If anything I would say that Steven’s demonstration would encourage others to realize that perfection requires devotion and many hours of practice. I would challenge even those in the know to say that anything is “tipped” here. “Palming you say”. Well, if you have performed any card magic in your life, then you know that you have heard, “oh he/she palmed the cards”, when a palm move is not even being used, and you secretly chuckle to yourself. This is a layman’s explanation for everything.

If you are afraid that someone may “figure out” how to do the move, then you might as well quit doing all magic for laymen, as someone may “figure it out”. Now that is a real “catch 22”. Further if you have this fear, then you need to practice more yourself, as it shows you lack confidence in what you are doing.

The only thing I would suggest Steven do is refer to his material that can be purchased which will explain to those willing to pay the price, how to execute, with many hours of practice, what they are witnessing in this video.

This doesn’t mean that the garbage exposures on YouTube will ever stop however for those who witness Steven’s abilities, they will realize how much they are being ripped off by YouTube “Instructables”.
Steven Youell
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Although I agree with Jimmy in principle, I also have had people tell me that they "know all about palming" and STILL have nailed them with The Homing Card or something that involves palming a card.

Once again, thank you all for helping me solidify my thoughts. Please keep the discussion going!

Steven youell
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