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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » You Oughta Be In Pictures » » Youell's on YouTube and Hell Has Frozen Over (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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garcia00
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Quote:
On 2008-09-01 17:38, Michaelmagicart wrote:
Let me state that I see nothing wrong with this video being on YouTube. It is no different than a magic demonstrator doing an effect without revealing the how to.


I find this to be a very interesting statement. How does a demonstration on YouTube differ from one in person in a magic shop? I mean, after you sit through a couple repeats, you probably have as much a chance at figuring it out as a YouTube viewer. Are people differentiating based on the number of viewers?

What is the difference?
jcards01
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Wsduncan,

I'm not saying every performance, but when I perform, I'm an old timer raised doing bar magic, I work very quickly. I can't tell you how often I perform effects and somebody will just grab the sleeves or try to explain to someone how something was done after I've left the table and they are pointing to their cuffs. AND I do no palming whatsoever in my close-up routines at the tables. A lot of people are conditioned to believe that way.

I'm in Southern Illinois now, near St. Louis. But got my first chances at performing on a steady basis in Chicago at the many old and now gone bars.

This is a very touchy subject, and I'm sure Steven is not the first one to wrestle with it and how to go about it. Personally, I would rather see sleights kept on personal websites related to magic. My own website is not protected but I only do routines with no explanations. That's just my opinion. I see references to Magic Video Depot and I can tell you I've seen terrible effects at this website also. The big difference is that the people frequenting MVD are supposedly magicians. YouTube is open to everyone.

Jim
Jimmy 'Cards' Molinari
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Marvelous_Mysto
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I am enjoying this discussion thread. I don't yet agree with some of the opinions that have been aired, but it is great to hear things from other people's viewpoint. This helps me to 'recalibrate' my perspective, and alter it where necessary.

I have enjoyed the thoughtful points that have posted, and would like this to continue.

Does the motive behind the YouTube post justify it? For example: If Steven posted this to YouTube, in order to generate sales of a new product, would that make it 'wrong'? If on the other hand he posted this to show the YouTube posers what real magicians can do, and hopefully encourage them to improve their posts, would that make it 'OK'?

I am not judging Steven's motives, just trying to clarify some of the thoughts that have been expressed earlier in this thread.

Regards
Baz
michaelmagicart
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Quote]
On 2008-09-01 18:18, garcia00 wrote:
Quote:

I find this to be a very interesting statement. How does a demonstration on YouTube differ from one in person in a magic shop? I mean, after you sit through a couple repeats, you probably have as much a chance at figuring it out as a YouTube viewer. Are people differentiating based on the number of viewers?

What is the difference?


I personally believe there is no difference as stated in my original post.

This is based upon my personal experience of spending close to 8,000 hours in demonstrating magic in two (2) heavily trafficked malls (over 8,000+ people daily in each mall) for three years. Many of these people were repeat "watchers" of the demonstrations, yet neither I nor my employees ever had problems of people figuring out how a certain trick was done. In fact many who purchased items, returned to watch the demos again and again often complimenting the staff on how well we performed, as we were "better than they were".

So the argument of repeated viewings leads to exposure, does not hold water with me.
Mike Powers
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There still seems to be confusion between demonstrating tricks and demonstrating secret techniques. The difference isn't subtle. When I work for people I do magic. I don't show them how I palm a card and they can't see it.

First let me say that I don't get nuts about exposure, mainly because there's nothing we can do about it. It's too bad that the "bubble of mystery" has been popped for so many people. I do believe the stories about fooling specs with stuff they just saw exposed are largely true, but I still think there is a lot of damage done. Perhaps the main damage is that exposure may create more interest in approaching magic as a puzzle to be figured out rather than an experience to enjoy.

That having been said, how about me creating this series of youtube videos: 1) I can put a card on the table, but look, it's actually 2 cards. You couldn't tell. 2) I can turn over what seems to be a single card, but it's two cards. You couldn't tell because I do it really well. 3) I can count 4 cards but there are actually 5. You couldn't tell because I'm really good. 4) I can show 4 face down cards but actually only 3 are face down. One is face up. You can't tell because I do it well. 5) etc etc

Interestingly, some of these can be presented as magic tricks instead of as secret moves that magicians use to fool you viz. the Elmsley Count. Instead of "look I can secretly hide the face up card" it's "look your card magically turned face up." It's possible that some analytical specs will determine that the method must be that you can secretly hide a reversed card. They might conclude that your fast hands reversed the card and they didn't see the reversal. Hopefully they won't be thinking either of these things. They'll be experiencing astonishment. I think that showing them that you can secretly hide a reversed card undermines the experience of magic.

Maybe the principle is this: The way to judge what belongs on youtube is to simply ask if it's good to show it to the people you are working for in the real world. For any magic trick performed well, the answer is likely yes. For any secret maneuver, I think the answer is no. That's my operating principle. Is the world of magic going to end because of youtube videos showing secret techniques? I don't think do. Do I think that showing secret techniques to lay people is neutral? No. I think it's a bad idea.

Gambling moves e.g. second dealing etc. are a special category that really open a can of worms. These moves are so exposed that it's too late to put a lid on them. Nonetheless, I think that less is better. We don't need more videos showing secret moves to lay people. Also, people may not connect a gambling move to magic - hopefully.

The masked magician is on once in a great while. Do we want him on all day long?

Mike
foolsnobody
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Another way to go about it would be this. Say you (Steven) see a magic performance on YouTube that is amateurish and rough, but you think the person shows potential. A judgment call. Why not send that person a private message saying you are willing to show that person an example of more invisible technique and point him to where he can learn more quality things if interested? Make it clear that your intention is not to mentor the person forever but just to point him in a useful direction.

Here's another idea. Put up a set of videos of effects that most of these magicians are doing, but do the effects better. Then make a general statement inviting magicians who want to be better that they can come to your password protected webpage for info on where they can begin to find the real work.
Roger Kelly
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Thanks Mike for putting it so eloquently.
michaelmagicart
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[quote]On 2008-09-01 22:37, Mike Powers wrote:
That having been said, how about me creating this series of youtube videos: 1) I can put a card on the table, but look, it's actually 2 cards. You couldn't tell. 2) I can turn over what seems to be a single card, but it's two cards. You couldn't tell because I do it really well. 3) I can count 4 cards but there are actually 5. You couldn't tell because I'm really good. 4) I can show 4 face down cards but actually only 3 are face down. One is face up. You can't tell because I do it well. 5) etc etc

It's already been done, and unfortunately in many cases very badly. As well as Jordan Counts, Elmsley Counts, Double Lifts, Passes and the list goes on and on.

Not to begin with the number of other effects that are rushed to YouTube as soon as someone buys a trick and learns the method. Hardly any of it is quality. It is sad to see.
Mike Powers
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It is sad to see. But I don't think the solution is to put up a video showing, say, a double lift done well. It's still saying "look, the magic dude can turn over two cards but it looks like one." I know that this stuff already exists. Why add another? If it's for magicians, put it on a private site with a password like Vernon's first name etc. Obviously someone intent on seeing it will find the name and get in. You can limit entry by posting the password in the secret sessions forum here etc. The main thing is to minimize the number of non-magi who view it.

Mike
Steven Youell
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So if I posted these things on my own website (with no password protection) would that satisfy everyone?

Steven Youell
tommy
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Its good and its bad. I think all sleights have little tells and this sort of film shows the lawmen what tells to look out for, so that‘s bad. On the other hand its good for magicians to see nice work in action. I think I would vote no to putting things like this on YouTube since so many laymen see it by accident. On your website is better I think.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
kosmoshiva
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No way did Mr Youell 'palm' those cards. I watched that clip over an' over. That was real magic! He made a pact with the devil and now he's foolin' all of us! Smile
Don't forget to breathe.
Steven Youell
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So something like this would make everyone happy?

http://www.stevenyouell.net

And yes-- I stayed up all night working on it. Dreamweaver ain't easy to learn.

Steven Youell
Vandy Grift
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Quote:
On 2008-09-02 12:35, Steven Youell wrote:
So something like this would make everyone happy?



No.

You are never going to make everyone in this bunch happy.

Looks good to me though. I just watched E.O.E., nicely done. I have always like that type of action for palming. Very natural.
"Get a life dude." -some guy in a magic forum
Roger Kelly
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Quote:
On 2008-09-02 12:35, Steven Youell wrote:
So something like this would make everyone happy?


It's a huge step in the right direction Steven and a lovely site.

Fair play to you to for listening to us Victor Meldrew's and taking positive action. As has already been pointed out, you're never going to please everyone on this thorny subject.

Now if you could just password protect that lot, it would polish it off nicely! Smile (Only kiddin - can't imagine too many people finding that by accident unless you've embedded key search words like "free magic secrets")

Thanks for listening.

Roger
abc
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Vandy is right. You won't make everyone happy. You'll make those happy who actually want to use the things you come up with. I am sure that now we are. For all those that would be unhappy you should add one to the list who is happy but doesn't bother saying so.
Keep us updated on how the site is progressing and we will keep it a secret.
MickeyPainless
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Nice work Steven!
Thanks for all your contributions,

Mick
tgold65
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Steve,

a way to make this easier on you is for you to continue to post to Youtube, but don't create any identifying keywords for people to search for your site (i.e. don't list "card magic" as a key word or title the video within anything like "Erdnase"). This way the only way to find the site is to know to search on Steve Youell (if you make that a keyword) or to find it because you posted a link on the Café or if people found you via word of mouth.

I am just trying to find a way to help you satisfy those who are concerned about too much exposure, but make your life easier as well as building and maintaining a site can be a hassle.


Todd
Steven Youell
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I just want to say that I have arrived at a solution that will make everyone happy. However you all will need to be patient with me as my site will be going down, coming back up, etc until I get everything tweaked just right. It may take a week or so, but your input has given me some very constructive ideas that should satisfy everyone-- including the people who have subscribed to my YouTube Channel.

Steven Youell
wsduncan
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Quote:
On 2008-09-02 11:19, Steven Youell wrote:
So if I posted these things on my own website (with no password protection) would that satisfy everyone?

Steven Youell

Well certainly it would be better than posting on YouTube, but it's not really the location. It's a combination of the content ON THAT LOCATION.

I still think showing a simple effect which displays what the move accomplishes would be preferable.
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