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seraph127
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Quote:
On 2009-01-06 22:46, DanielCoyne wrote:
I don't know many self-working tricks...I find many of the ones I've read seem to involve an insufferable amount of counting and spelling out. I think I'm too ADD to stay focused.

However, I did see a self-working trick taught as a freebie by Mark Wilson. I don't know if this is a well-known trick, but he calls it, "Fantastic Five." It's quick, visual, and it seemed pretty magical to me (at least on the initial viewing.)

Here's the lesson on Youtube:

Mark Wilson Card Trick - Free Magic Lesson -- Fantastic Five
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXcfeugIQFs

-Daniel


Wow. Normally, I don't really consider myself an anti-exposure zealot, but this isn't cool. Wilson had this in Complete Course in Magic, but it's actually Nick Trost's "Significator Five-Spot" ("The Card Magic of Nick Trost, p.134). So not only is this being passed off without credit, it's being shown on a heavily-trafficked site for any layman to see.

I'll say it again.

Wow.
There are many tricks, and many effects, but rarely a Grand Effect. There are many entertainers, but few real magicians. Many technicians, but few artists who use their art to explore their vision. - Derren Brown, Absolute Magic
Turk
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Quote:
On 2009-01-07 13:17, seraph127 wrote:
***
Wow. Normally, I don't really consider myself an anti-exposure zealot, but this isn't cool. Wilson had this in Complete Course in Magic, but it's actually Nick Trost's "Significator Five-Spot" ("The Card Magic of Nick Trost, p.134). So not only is this being passed off without credit, it's being shown on a heavily-trafficked site for any layman to see.
***


Without commenting on the anti-exposure comments, is this effect actually original with either Mark Wilson or Nick Trost? If it is, which one of the two had the idea first (and so arguably, it is his to give away if he is so inclined)?

The reason I raise this question is because "The Card Magic of Nick Trost" was first published in 1997 ( http://geniimagazine.com/wiki/index.php/Nick_Trost ) and I know that the Mark Wilson book hit the stands back in the mid 1970s (1976, I believe). Of course, Nick put out a number of books prior to the above-referenced one. Hence, my questions as to which person, Mark or Nick, first publihsed this effect and was that published effect original with that person?

Thanks for the info.

Mike
Magic is a vanishing Art.

This must not be Kansas anymore, Toto.

Eschew obfuscation.
seraph127
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Quote:
On 2009-01-17 11:30, Turk wrote:

Without commenting on the anti-exposure comments, is this effect actually original with either Mark Wilson or Nick Trost? If it is, which one of the two had the idea first (and so arguably, it is his to give away if he is so inclined)?

The reason I raise this question is because "The Card Magic of Nick Trost" was first published in 1997 ( http://geniimagazine.com/wiki/index.php/Nick_Trost ) and I know that the Mark Wilson book hit the stands back in the mid 1970s (1976, I believe). Of course, Nick put out a number of books prior to the above-referenced one. Hence, my questions as to which person, Mark or Nick, first publihsed this effect and was that published effect original with that person?

Thanks for the info.

Mike


In the second paragraph of the Foreword, Trost says "Contained here are many of my best effects -122 of them- along with variations and presentations by fellow magicians[...]Most of the material has been in print, and I have selected what I consider the 'cream'."

Several effects are credited (ex: "Omega Bet", which he correctly notes is Karl Fulves'), "Significator Five-Spot" is not. I presume this means Trost claims it as original with him.
There are many tricks, and many effects, but rarely a Grand Effect. There are many entertainers, but few real magicians. Many technicians, but few artists who use their art to explore their vision. - Derren Brown, Absolute Magic
Turk
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Seraph127,

Thanks for that information. I can certainly agree that that is possibly what Nick is impliedly claiming.

Also possible is that the effect is as "old as dirt" and/or that Nick has no idea of the creator and/or that he might have considered the effect to be in the public domain.

That said, and with deepest respect for you and your beliefs in this matter, I respectfully ask that you consider the following:

My problem with such "implied claim of ownership" is two-fold (possibly three-fold):

For sure:

1. In the magic field, and "all things being equal", the person who first publishes is normally given the credit for the origination and considered the creator/originator. Mark Wilson's cited work was published in 1976 (a full 23 years ahead of the cited Nick Trost book). Hence my prior question asking if Trost published the effect in any earlier book and for certain in a book earlier than the Mark Wilson 1976 book.

2. It is very possible that these two magic creators could have simultaneously (or roughtly contemporaneously) had the same idea and come up with the same effect. And, without publication, and without communication between themselves on the effect, they could have each gone on for years thinking that he was the first creator of the effect in question. Hence the importance of the date of first publication to (help?) end such uncertainties and potential disputes.

And, possibly:

3. The methodology for this effect is not a real complexity and, as such, it is possible (likely?) that many other persons (in addition to Mark and Nick) might have also had the same independent idea but never published "their" effect. As such, it is possible that these other people might have created "their" effect years before either Mark or Nick (or both) came up with the same idea. By this last comment, I certainly am not intending to suggest that either Mark or Nick stole the idea from someone else. Rather, I'm suggesting that the card plot of this effect and the methodology are so simple that I can envision the possibility that many people created this effect independent of many others--and that includes both Mark and Nick.

This is quite intriguing. Perhaps one of the notable card effect historians that frequent the Café (such as Hideo Kato or Jonathan Townsend?) might chime in here and add some pertinent and more complete information in this regard.

Best regards,

Mike

P.S. Additionally, I'm not aware whether or not Mark Wilson was a known approriator of other's effects. I've heard nothing untoward concerning Mark Wilson's magic ethics and, as such, I must give him the benefit of the doubt until and unless evidence to the contrary is presented. I certainly am not willing to castigate him as an knowing exposer of a Nick Trost effect without more substantial and compelling evidence to the contrary.
Magic is a vanishing Art.

This must not be Kansas anymore, Toto.

Eschew obfuscation.
seraph127
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I would also like hear from one of the more scholarly types.

I'm not sure that Wilson came up with much of anything that appears in his book anyway. I'd guess that most of the material was provided by the "co-authors": Walter Gibson, "Gen" Grant and Larry Anderson (the "Jawdroppers!" guy).

I also note that an effect in CCIM titled "Sandwiched Aces" is essentially identical to Lin Searles "Pre-Cannibal Cards" from Epilogue, March 1972. The principal difference being the use of a couple of DL's in the inital display in CCIM, in contrast to Searles' use of the D'Amico Spread. My guess would be that CCIM uses the DL's because they'd be much easier for the novice than the D'Amico spread.

I'm not trying to bash Wilson at all. My impression is that he's one of the nicest guys around (and a good friend of Denny Haney's, I believe - another reputable fellow). I'm just raising the possibility that he might have made an error in judgment.

Again, I'm not really into being the exposure police, but it's a pretty good trick (simple as it is) and I feel sure it's NOT one of those anonymous old standards like "You Do As I Do". My unease arises from a pragmatic concern, as I'm no absolutist on exposure. I just think Youtube is far too visible a repository for the revelation of the effect. If it had appeared on, say, the Allmagic Guide, I wouldn't have raised an eyebrow.

Well, here's hoping that wiser heads than mine will soon shed more light on the issue.
There are many tricks, and many effects, but rarely a Grand Effect. There are many entertainers, but few real magicians. Many technicians, but few artists who use their art to explore their vision. - Derren Brown, Absolute Magic
seraph127
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Interesting new developments. I've just heard from someone.

Quote:
I'm not sure this is the earliest reference, but a precursor exists in The Encyclopedia of Card Magic. I currently have the Foulsham edition, and on page 188 appears this item:

Quote:

Sure Locator
Grant


Take any spot card, preferably a 5, and reverse it in the pack, fifth from the bottom.

Having done this secretly, have a card chosen, being careful not to spread the cards near the bottom. After the spectator has noted his card, have it put on top of the pack, under cut about half the cards and drop them on top, burying the card in the middle. Say that you will cause a card to reverse itself in the middle to indicate where the chosen card is. Fan the pack, showing the reversed 5 in the middle. Cut at that card, and throw it face up on the table. Deal off four cards and throw the next one, the chosen card, face down. Have the card named and turn it over.


The addition of having the interim cards be four aces makes absolutely no sense to me.


My reply:
Quote:
Thanks, Lance. I found it on p. 169 of the Dover edition. If the "Grant" referenced is UF Grant (who else would it be), that's particularly interesting, as he's one of the "co-authors" of CCIM. Maybe he introduced the Ace kicker ending between EOCM and his contributions to CCIM?

BTW, I wonder now if "Significator Five-Spot" was one of Trost's previously-published items.

This is turning kinda weird.


Maybe a case of independent invention after all. Stay tuned for further developments...
There are many tricks, and many effects, but rarely a Grand Effect. There are many entertainers, but few real magicians. Many technicians, but few artists who use their art to explore their vision. - Derren Brown, Absolute Magic
Bill Hallahan
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Humans make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to create boredom. Quite astonishing.
- The character of ‘Death’ in the movie "Hogswatch"
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