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Dal Regular user Dallas, TX 124 Posts |
Hi Curtis-
I understand what you are saying about the two kids infringing upon the rights of the Pendragons. “Norabmagic” stated that the cloth handling is not the Pendragons’ method and on that issue I will submit to his knowledge. However Jonathon did call one of my best friends in magic just minutes before his debut at the Magic Castle because he believed that John’s routine, while not exact, was still “too similar” to his. He asked my friend not to do the trick until they could talk. Needless to say, my friend was pretty badly shaken up. Again though, my main point is that some of us need to show each other more respect. Although I don’t post here very often (I am a long time lurker), I have seen some great advice here at the Café. This advice has come from full time pros who deserve respect. …again, this is just my opinion. —Dal Sanders
Dal Sanders International Comedy Magician and Illusionist Based In Dallas, TX
The Society of American Magicians Past National President M.I.M.C.* |
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SeanScottMagic Veteran user 325 Posts |
My challenge still remains, Jordan needs to literally show me a piece of video that pre-dates the Pendragons doing Metamorphosis with the following:
- A sub-trunk performed with the one performer using pure gravity to get down into the box while they are literally racing the cloth down to the top of the box, with the trap resealing behind them. The point here is for several years the Pendragons have given Metamorphosis a recognizable dynamic look, worldwide. It's been used & abused. Before everyone & their uncle jumps on this, please realize this question is for Jordan. It is simply to establish the source of inspiration the kids were using, even if the music did give it away. Sean
http://WWW.THEARTOFSEANSCOTT.COM
AVAILABLE EFFECTS: ROAMING RISE RENDER MODOSU FACTORY LINE BANDARIZUMU KI MXL |
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chrusa Special user Connecticut 736 Posts |
That is weird I posted my reply but a bunch of others went before mine. My question was actually answered earlier but I didn't see them while typing my last post. When I was typing the last post I saw was
Seanscootmagic Jordan Ask them where they got the idea for the speed switch. Why are you so protective of these guys? I guess it got delayed from posting sorry that I didn't see you alredy answered my question
Thanks,
<BR> <BR>Chris Hrusa |
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magicofCurtis Inner circle Los Angeles 2545 Posts |
I think a lot of smaller town magician with a youthful cutting edge style has performed the speed switch for many years prior....
It is like asking what came first the chicken or the egg.....
Curtis Lovell II
http://www.CurtisLovell.com http://www.MagicofCurtis.com www.facebook.com/curtislovellii Los Angeles, California - U.S.A. |
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SeanScottMagic Veteran user 325 Posts |
Curtis
It's probably more like asking, did the chicken get the idea to lay an egg after he saw it. Jordan Check this out. To my knowledge, this is basically the first version of the Pendragons' sub-trunk. Look at all elements involved and tell me if the similarity seems a bit uncanny: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlLjCcMMXJE Sean
http://WWW.THEARTOFSEANSCOTT.COM
AVAILABLE EFFECTS: ROAMING RISE RENDER MODOSU FACTORY LINE BANDARIZUMU KI MXL |
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Kevin Ridgeway V.I.P. Indianapolis, IN & Phoenix, AZ 1832 Posts |
Here is a question:
Can you take an element from another industry, something that already exists, then apply it to a magic trick....and then claim it is your own and protected piece? Kevin
Living Illusions
Ridgeway & Johnson Entertainment Inc Kevin Ridgeway & Kristen Johnson aka Lady Houdini The World's Premier Female Escape Artist www.LadyHoudini.com www.livingillusions.com |
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magicivan New user Spain 2 Posts |
Hi magicians,
My name is Ivan, I'm Spanish, my English is not good, sorry. Thanks for the advice, but I have a question. What must I have to my subtrunk is not the same as Pendragon's subtrunk? I have change our curtain? Our box? our speed? What? Thanks. Only we are two young magicians, We don't know that our subtrunk is the same as Pengragons sorry. Thanks Magicians for the advices! And Thanks Jordan! Magicivan!* |
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JulianVictor Regular user 148 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-09-05 21:32, Dal wrote: What are you talking about sir, if you call holding a cloth ethics, then ok, I don't have them because that is just simply outragous!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bn6EPeu3Jus I mean the whole point of this illusion is as it states Metamophosis!!! You cannot make everyone else go slow because Pendragons do it fast. We need to wake up out of our little world and get realistic. Should we all slow down our Sub Trunks not to be as fast as Pendragons? And we should not have a T*p T**p either? Jordan |
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Dixie Loyal user 219 Posts |
Jordan, your young friends are stuck.
If they perform their magic too fast, they are copying Pendragon. If they perform too slow, they are copying Copperfield's SloMo. Did they ever think about not moving at all to avoid being blamed for something? I really would be sorry if some of the ethic regulators here in the Café get a heart attack about youngsters with talent. Regards Richard |
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magicofCurtis Inner circle Los Angeles 2545 Posts |
[quote]On 2008-09-06 04:02, SeanScottMagic wrote:
Curtis It's probably more like asking, did the chicken get the idea to lay an egg after he saw it. Maybe one chick was three thousand miles away and laid an egg and then another chicken did it too with out seeing the first chicken.... An independent discovery processes????
Curtis Lovell II
http://www.CurtisLovell.com http://www.MagicofCurtis.com www.facebook.com/curtislovellii Los Angeles, California - U.S.A. |
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Dixie Loyal user 219 Posts |
Maybe some of the chicken should stop cackling all day and start laying an egg ?
:) |
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SeanScottMagic Veteran user 325 Posts |
Curtis
People do conceive of similar ideas at the same time. I don't think it occurs with the frequency some say though. But that is not what this is about. There are about 3 areas here of similarity to the Pendragons that these guys need to change if they want to avoid the slings & arrows of this association, regardless if they are unaware of the likeness. They are in need of some creative direction and general experience. It is best they hit this bump now, rather than later. The professional approach is to brand yourself by differing in music, performance, costume, personality, etc. Sometimes it takes a lifetime. Sometimes less. This development can depend on when you learn these lessons.
http://WWW.THEARTOFSEANSCOTT.COM
AVAILABLE EFFECTS: ROAMING RISE RENDER MODOSU FACTORY LINE BANDARIZUMU KI MXL |
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magic4u02 Eternal Order Philadelphia, PA 15110 Posts |
I agree a lot with some of what Sean is discussing here and started to touch base on. One of the reasons that I feel so many argue over this is because in essence most every magician (some exceptions) perform the subtrunk or metamorphosis in the same way. They perform it based upon how it has always been done in the past. Not much variation in regards to the effect and routining over the years.
In most cases, you have a trunk and 2 people who use a cloth curtain, stand on top and make a transformation of some sort (usually fast). The people are either shackled or use a bag when in the trunk and the trunk is locked in some fashion. Now how many magicians do you know that do the illusion and perform it in the same way as I described? In my book .. a lot. The reason is because that is the way it has always been done. So some try and make it faster or some try and have more locks or a bag that is tied more or a trunk with more locks or chains. But, in essence this does not really change anything at all. To me it is still very much the same way as it has always been done. If you really want to stand out and make a name for yourself with this illusion, you got to throw away everything you know about the illusion or have seen and start completely fresh again. Basically, throw away the DVDs, Videos or any visual memories of seeing others do it. Then you start looking away from magic for other ideas. This is where creativity can really spark and begin. Too many of us look inward at magic for ideas instead of looking outwards away from magic for concepts to routining. I mean let's think about this for a second. Let us say to ourselves what could happen if we really thought about the subtrunk illusion in a new fashion entirely? What could happen if we forgot about every performance we have seen of it and just go off on tangents? - what if you did not even use a trunk at all? Why does it have to be a trunk in the first place? Can it be something else entirely? If so, what could it be that would be so different? What object could it be besides a trunk? Starts to change things up already now doesn't it. - What is the person who should be in the bag is not there at all but instead is a stage crew wearing headphones, clip board and a mic wondering how he got there. The person who should be there is totally gone? - What if it is not a double switch but a triple switch? - What if no one emerged on the top of the trunk after the switch? - What if you had a theme going for the illusion or storyline instead of just doing it straight forward. What if it was gangster themed and the bag was a giant money bag and the trunk was a safe instead with a door that locks into place. What if then the person (robber) locks a cop inside the safe, jumps on the top and holds up a cloth as an act to hide from the other cops. The cops notice the cloth moving and so shoot at the cloth. As they shoot holes form in the cloth so you see right through the cloth as the cloth drops and no one is standing on top at all. The person that was inside is now the cop who fired the gun and the person that was hiding (robber) is now locked inside the safe. The idea to ask yourself here is simple.. "what if". What if we stopped thinking so hard on how the subtrunk has always been done and start to view it entirely in new ways. Forget what we know of the illusion and begin to look past it. Imagine the ideas and creativity that could be started if we open our eyes to looking past what we already know. I think if we started doing this, we would spend less time worrying about someone's version looking like someone else's and really start to see a completely different and unique idea that is as unique as you are. Just my 2 cents worth. Kyle
Kyle Peron
http://www.kylekellymagic.com Entertainers Product Site http://kpmagicproducts.com Join Our Facebook Fan Page at http://facebook.com/perondesign |
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SeanScottMagic Veteran user 325 Posts |
Couldn't have said it any better Kyle.
Sean
http://WWW.THEARTOFSEANSCOTT.COM
AVAILABLE EFFECTS: ROAMING RISE RENDER MODOSU FACTORY LINE BANDARIZUMU KI MXL |
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chrusa Special user Connecticut 736 Posts |
Look at Copperfields Passions Prison, my favorite DC illusion!
Thanks,
<BR> <BR>Chris Hrusa |
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Ed Garcia New user Lindenhurst, IL 35 Posts |
I agree. Copperfield's Passions Prison/Cocoon is the only other version of the metamorphosis I'm aware of that doesn't require a person standing on top of a trunk.
That, in essence, is what Kyle is talking about. Take the idea and look at it a different way. No one can do the Subtrunk nowadays without being compared to the Pendragon's, so unless you're willing to be compared with the most perfect version of the illusion out there, then take Kyle's advice and look at the idea and create something refreshing. That doesn't mean create a brand new illusion using a brand new priciple... it just means present it in a fresh way.
-Ed Garcia
http://www.edgarciamagic.com |
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magicivan New user Spain 2 Posts |
I saw subtrunk videos, to see others subtrunks, and I see this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUAPvshOkyU . I think that this video is more similar than our video to pendragons, the curtain is the same, the speed too.
Do they copy the Pendragons too? thanks magicians! Magicivan!* |
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ClintonMagus Inner circle Southwestern Southeast 3997 Posts |
Yes the curtain move and a couple of the poses are similar to the early Pendragons. Except for those, the look is different.
Things are more like they are today than they've ever been before...
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magic4u02 Eternal Order Philadelphia, PA 15110 Posts |
Sean: Thanks so much. I just feel we as magicians latch on to what we have seen before so often that we then get hung up on thinking there is no other way to do it. In reality there are TONS of new and fresh ideas waiting out there to be discovered if one just opens their eyes and learns to look away from magic for creative inspiration.
Chris and Ed: That is exactly my point and a perfect example. It is about thinking outside of the box (trunk) lol. I mean if you truely want to be fresh and unique, then you must be willing to ask yourself a series of questions and ask yourself "what if" a lot. Allow your mind to be truely open to new ideas instead of being so influenced by what has always been done before. I try and do is figure out the basic effect of any illusion and just retain that only. I forget about presentations I have seen. I forget about music, dance, choreogrpahy. The only thing I need to remember and focus on is the main essence of the effect. What is it that magically happens for the audience? From that point on, I can decide to take it down many different avenues and paths and I often do that. I allow my mind to take the effect down different directions and I write everything down in my creativity journals. It just really urks me to see magicians doing the same old same old. We tend to create clones all the time because the only thing we know how to do is to perform an illusion the way we have always seen it performed. This doesn't do anything to advance the art of magic at all. It just makes more copies or bad copies of what is already out there. This is why I am so geared and focused on creativity in magic and why I talk about it a lot and why I write about it exstensively. I also even now lecture on the exact topic of creativity in magic and have a workshop that goes along with it. I figured that there are a lot of folks that want to be creative but simply do not know where to even start to acquire the skills needed to be creative. This is why I started teaching folks simple ideas, tips and techniques that really work to start opening the mind to thinking in more creative ways. The newest video post is also done very nicely. the music works and the dance sequences work as well. but in essence it is the sub trunbk being performed exactly how everyone else has done it prior (more or less). ASo we speed it up as fast as we can or we try and put handcuffs behind our back. Does this really change it all that much? Not really. That is why so many of us get into talking about how close it is to the Pendragons or how similar it is to something else. The reason is because all of them look alike in presentation. Kyle
Kyle Peron
http://www.kylekellymagic.com Entertainers Product Site http://kpmagicproducts.com Join Our Facebook Fan Page at http://facebook.com/perondesign |
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Lance Richardson Loyal user 246 Posts |
Why does a Sub Trunk need to be preformed fast, who made that rule?
I believe in nature a metamorphosis is a slow event. If I were doing the Sub Trunk I would do it slow and make it a beautiful effect just to be different. Also why does the magician need to stand on top of the trunk? I can see the magician standing next to it with the cloth just barely touching the box. Why does it need to be a truck/box anyway, how about using a neck and arm stock turned upright and have one performer in the stock and the other standing on top holding the cloth? As magicians we literally need to think out side of the box. Lance |
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