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pepka
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Uh, I'm the one on the right.
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Well said Payne! Matt, this is an open public forum. You don't really have the right to tell someone to stay out just because they don't agree with you.
Laszlo Csizmadi
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From Hell
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Quote:
On 2008-09-09 11:16, Magicque wrote:
Imagine when the loser will show an Asrah!


Hey Eric,

Sorry to say this but you are late. The Asrah was revealed a little over 10 years ago by Herbert L Becker. He revealed about 10-15 illusions. In my knowledge he is/was hiding in Quebec. Sadly the last 25 years to many illusions were revealed. I never forget one interview with Lance Burton when he said. "I'm not mad at you Val". I even taped. It looks like it was not a big deal to him. They are must be friends.

Best,

Las
Matthew W
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Yes it is a public forum, but how many people need to say the exact same thing? I am trying to promote a petition, not start a debate.

I really hate to come of sounding rude or mean, but I am really upset with where people are taking the art of magic.
-Matt
stephane_arnow
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Hi Payne

with all my respect, how many illusions do you perform in your show ?
Grand illusion show is a sort of magic show. It need to be respected like others style of magic.
Payne
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I perform zero illusions in my programs and in truth am not a great fan of them either. They tend to bore me as all too often they are simply presented as big box puzzles with little regard going into a storyline or logical reason as to why you'd own a bizarre looking box like that, let alone why you're cramming an all to willing assistant into one for the purposes of senseless vivisection.
Perhaps this is the reason that the creators of these exposure shows choose this type of magic for their programs. They simply view them as puzzles to solve because that's the way so many magicians present them.
Have illusionists subconsciously thrown down the gauntlet and unconsciously challenged the masses to figure their illusions out? With little in the way of theatrical structure and focus on entertainment over enigma the audience is left with little other recourse than to ask themselves "How is it done".
Magic tricks of and by themselves generally are not entertaining. It is the presentation and personality of the performer that makes them so. I fear for too long too many magicians have relied upon the mystery of their curious boxes to carry them through their show. Thus their terror at having their secrets (not that they were ever truly theirs) revealed as that is all they have.
This answers the question of why "the big boys" like Copperfield, Burton and the Pendragons rarely chime in on this topic. They realize that the secret, while important is not the be all and end all of magic.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
magicofCurtis
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Quote:
On 2008-09-09 16:09, Matthew W wrote:
Yes it is a public forum, but how many people need to say the exact same thing? I am trying to promote a petition, not start a debate.

I really hate to come of sounding rude or mean, but I am really upset with where people are taking the art of magic.


Matthew, maybe we believe your petition might hurt us more than it will help? Ever thought of looking it that way?

Payne, Loving your point of view!
j.i.s.
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I would like to know how think Eugen Burger for example about this thing.
Payne
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Quote:
On 2008-09-09 21:36, j.i.s. wrote:
I would like to know how think Eugen Burger for example about this thing.


Perhaps there is a reason why he doesn't do bozx tricks
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
gulamerian
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Magicque. In no particular order illusions I have or perform in my show. Zig Zag, Sword Box, Origami, Blammo, Broom Suspension, Square Circle Illusion Size, Light Fantastic, Metamorphosis, Duck Bucket, Wringer, Assistant's Revenge, Pagoda Screen Girl Production, Crystal Casket, Head Chopper, Fire Cage, Neon, Doll House, Modern Cabinet, Vanishing Radio, Asrah, Sword Suspension, Tip Trunk, Mystery of Three, Demon of Doom, Back Stage With The Magician, Mummy Wrap, I mentioned the Rings and Zig Zag as a point of reference. And I am the idiot?
Matthew W
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That truly is a poor way of looking at it.

Have you ever looked at it this way:

By doing nothing, it looks like it does not bother any magicians and makes it look like we condone exposure.


Payne, if I were to follow your theory and point of view, card tricks and close up are senseless too, right? Whats the point of putting a card in a deck and finding it again? Why are you putting a sword through your volunteers neck? Why cover the bottles with tubes. Why are you vanishing balls and making go under cups? Bicycle cards with red and blue diamonds and a guy with money on them look bizarre. All of the weird stuff is part of the effects. The box is to keep the assitants head from falling and rolling away, the cards help explain the story, we find the cards because we can. All of the props are used to build the entertainment around. If all of the stuff was weird and pointless, why are audiences seeing magic and hiring magicians? The entertainment. If we did not have the magic secrets we are just actors, comedians, and sideshow artists. Our secrets are what makes a line between magicians and just comedians and actors.


If we don't do anything, about exposure, it will only get worse. We can at least try to keep it to a minimum. Movie companies will never be able to end piracy, but they are keeping it at a minimum.
-Matt
Magicque
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"Magicque. In no particular order illusions I have or perform in my show. Zig Zag, Sword Box, Origami, Blammo, Broom Suspension, Square Circle Illusion Size, Light Fantastic, Metamorphosis, Duck Bucket, Wringer, Assistant's Revenge, Pagoda Screen Girl Production, Crystal Casket, Head Chopper, Fire Cage, Neon, Doll House, Modern Cabinet, Vanishing Radio, Asrah, Sword Suspension, Tip Trunk, Mystery of Three, Demon of Doom, Back Stage With The Magician, Mummy Wrap, I mentioned the Rings and Zig Zag as a point of reference. And I am the idiot? "

You are even more idiot than I thought Gulamerian...You paid for all these effects and now you are willing to watch a low-life jerk perform your investments on TV without doing anything???!!! What a businessman!!!

Do you know how to read?! Some guys wroite here that if you don't want to sign the petition, click on another topic and try to sell everything you took the time to write here...Am I clear enough?
Payne
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Quote:
On 2008-09-09 22:22, Matthew W wrote:
That truly is a poor way of looking at it.

Have you ever looked at it this way:

By doing nothing, it looks like it does not bother any magicians and makes it look like we condone exposure.


Or it makes us look as either the method they expose is wrong or that in the end the method really doesn't matter and that perhaps the true secret of magic is not the secret.

Quote:
Payne, if I were to follow your theory and point of view, card tricks and close up are senseless too, right? Whats the point of putting a card in a deck and finding it again? Why are you putting a sword through your volunteers neck? Why cover the bottles with tubes. Why are you vanishing balls and making go under cups?


Why indeed. Perhaps if more magicians tried to answer this simple question magic wouldn't be regarded as the second rate entertainment that it is today.

Quote:
Bicycle cards with red and blue diamonds and a guy with money on them look bizarre. All of the weird stuff is part of the effects. The box is to keep the assitants head from falling and rolling away, the cards help explain the story, we find the cards because we can. All of the props are used to build the entertainment around. If all of the stuff was weird and pointless, why are audiences seeing magic and hiring magicians? The entertainment.


Far too much magic is presented with the "Because I can" or the "we're supposed to have weird stuff so I don't need to justify it" type of attitudes. Sometimes this is enough butfar too many magicians stop there and never explore what could be. They are all far too willing to simplty accept what is.

Quote:
If we did not have the magic secrets we are just actors, comedians, and sideshow artists. Our secrets are what makes a line between magicians and just comedians and actors.


You say this like it's a bad thing. Perhaps if we valued the theatrical side of the craft more we could start being treated more seriously as magicians. We will never get the respect we think we deserve until we ourselves start treating the practise of magic with more respect.
Stop obsessing and focusing on the secrets. Learn to grow beyond them and discover the true art to performing magic.

Quote:
If we don't do anything, about exposure, it will only get worse. We can at least try to keep it to a minimum. Movie companies will never be able to end piracy, but they are keeping it at a minimum.


If we focus to much energy on trying to stop it it will only get worse. It will never go away but it will cease to grow if we fight what we can and ignore the rest.
Rising up en-masse only plays into their hands and gives them even more publicity.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
Magicque
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Enough. I think I have enough.
Good night everyone!
Matthew W
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"Or it makes us look as either the method they expose is wrong or that in the end the method really doesn't matter and that perhaps the true secret of magic is not the secret."

You go and try performing a magic show without using any of the secrets or methods. What will you be doing without the secrets?


"Why indeed. Perhaps if more magicians tried to answer this simple question magic wouldn't be regarded as the second rate entertainment that it is today."

Who said magic is second rate? There are magicians with their own theaters and production companies, I don't see that as second rate. Why sing a song, why dance?


"Far too much magic is presented with the "Because I can" or the "we're supposed to have weird stuff so I don't need to justify it" type of attitudes. Sometimes this is enough butfar too many magicians stop there and never explore what could be. They are all far too willing to simplty accept what is."

You have posted a lot about the sword through neck and multiplying bottles. What logical reason can you give for what you do in those effects? Why are you making balls appear under cups?



"You say this like it's a bad thing. Perhaps if we valued the theatrical side of the craft more we could start being treated more seriously as magicians. We will never get the respect we think we deserve until we ourselves start treating the practise of magic with more respect.
Stop obsessing and focusing on the secrets. Learn to grow beyond them and discover the true art to performing magic."

I don't say it as a bad thing. The theatrical part of magic is making it look good, routines, costumes, outfits, staging, lighting, music.

People don't respect us is because we act weak against what people are doing to us. We need to show that we won't give in.


"If we focus to much energy on trying to stop it it will only get worse. It will never go away but it will cease to grow if we fight what we can and ignore the rest.
Rising up en-masse only plays into their hands and gives them even more publicity."

So lets fight what we can. We all can't go to the producers and network presidents, and we shouldn't, we need to the ones that actually are enabling it to happen. If advertisers won't pay, it wont be done again.

We can ignore the show itself, but the exposure cannot be ignored. It is happening and it does have an effect.
-Matt
Payne
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Quote:
On 2008-09-09 23:25, Matthew W wrote:

You have posted a lot about the sword through neck and multiplying bottles. What logical reason can you give for what you do in those effects?


My sword through neck routine is perfectly logical. There is a reason for the sword and the stocks and a logical motivation for putting the spectator into the device. I get between eight and twelve minutes out of the routine and by the end of the trick no one cares a fig about how it is done as they are having too much fun taking part in the routine. If I just slapped the stock around a hapless assistants neck and pushed the sword through then of course everyone would be thinking that it just went around their neck or folded up in the handle as you've given them nothing more than a puzzle to figure out.

My Multiplying bottles too have a logical reason behind them. I'm using the tubes, bottle and glass to explain the finer points of quantum mechanics. Theres a reason why the bottles change places and multiply and again the audience is too wrapped up in the presentation to worry about the secret.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
Matthew W
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I too get 10 minutes from my sword through neck, but still you have not stated a logical reason for doing it.

So, are explaining quantum mechanics through something "you can do", or showing "you can do" quantum mechanics?

Magic is always going to be viewed as something "you can do", but the presentation is just the way you entertain with what "you can do." The audience is going to remember the "trick you did."

I have never been told about how I taught the audience how to make the "bandana" vanish, but the fact that I did.

For audiences, magic is the trick, not how you spent 10 minutes stretching out the process. The time in between the steps is the show.
-Matt
Payne
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Quote:
On 2008-09-09 23:52, Matthew W wrote:

I have never been told about how I taught the audience how to make the "bandana" vanish, but the fact that I did.

For audiences, magic is the trick, not how you spent 10 minutes stretching out the process. The time in between the steps is the show.


Not necessarily true. There should be a balance between trick, effect and presentation. No one ever asks me to show them the sword through neck trick but always ask to see the Ram's Bladder Trick, which is my presentation for it. They remember it as a cohesive presentation not just a trick with a sword.

Have you read Fitzgee or Nelms yet?
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
JamesTong
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Quote:
On 2008-09-07 21:13, Matthew W wrote:
Look at this:

http://www.myspace.com/the_masked_magician

Take a close look at his friends list. It really makes me sick.


You are right on this one. I wonder what can the petition do.
j.i.s.
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It seem that we are a few just a few who want to do something and a very lot the others who don't want to do soemthing from diffrent reasons I mean somebodyes don't care , somebodyes think that is better to do nothing because will atract the atentions to much and the ppls wil want to watch how a lot of illusions dies.
Ohhh is very clear for me that will be a change in thins world and this is not only about Masked idiot is about a lot of ways of reveals from media is about this century of very speed info is about internet ...the beautiful magic storyes will died ...in fact we all will be day by day very bad ....you know 11 sept changed the world ...now if you want to take a flight you must to have a lot of complicate things to do in airport because posible terorist strikes ...day by day will be worst and worst and in magic will be a change I am very sure and I think most of us will dissapear for other jobs and will remain some vips with very very unique magic with very specials secrets like Copperfield and others.
That's it very sad but when you see some very precious and legendary secrets illusions rentals by some idiots and played very wrong life on TV or revealed by others greed imbecils ...well you think that's a kind of change will happened very soon. 120 illusion are too much but not all are the money of Copperfield to could create theyr own illusion protected by a copyright .
j.i.s.
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As I said worst and worst day by day ....now I just saw the explanation I mean the reveal of Kevin James amazing man cut.
I will not give the link but is not so hard to find it.
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