|
|
Go to page [Previous] 1~2~3 [Next] | ||||||||||
Beaudini Magic Loyal user Ohio 259 Posts |
Dear Friends,
I must start by saying that my opinion on this topic will indeed be biased to some degree. I have purchased illusions from Dream Illusions, and Jack Murray has also become a personal friend of mine. With this in mind, I do feel that I can offer a valuable third-party perspective. First, the illusion manufacturing business is essentially an oligopoly with a few select builders who dominate the market. Any professional and most amateurs know who these builders are. When Jack Murray started Dream Illusions, he set out to create a different kind of illusion business. His goal was to be a builder who provided superior customer service and the finest, most affordable illusions available. Above all else, he wanted to be there for both the well known headlining illusionists, and the lesser known, small guys like myself and many of you. Jack Murray's vision has become a reality, and the success of Dream Illusions can directly be attributed to Jack Murray's love of illusion and his sincere caring for others. With Jack's commitment, it can only be expected that he is an extremely passionate person. Anyone who has ever tried to do something totally different, to take the road less traveled, should understand this. As a result of Jack's dedication and desire to do the right thing, I know that he feels as if he must defend himself and the decisions he makes in the unlikely event of a dissatisfied customer. It is common knowledge that passion can be either good or bad. Jack is passionate about the props he builds and even more passionate about making sure that his customers are happy. This is reflected by the countless customers that have sang his praises, right here on this forum. This is good passion. Conversely, when a very rare problem arises, he always works his hardest to rectify the situation. When Jack responds to negative posts about him or his company, some refer to his comments as "blowing up" or "flaming." In actuality, I believe them to be Jack's passionate attempts to defend himself when he feels like his character or integrity is being questioned. I have discussed this with Jack before, and this is the conclusion I have arrived at... The Magic Café and the Internet in General are terrible vehicles for expressing how a person actually feels. While some people may utilize exclamation points and capital letters to accentuate their points, others use it as a way of screaming or degrading others through text. It is difficult to differentiate how the sender actually feels, and therefore, interpreting the tone of a serious post is also extremely challenging. In this particular case, I would imagine that Jack is only trying to defend his position, not scream or belittle anyone else. After all, if you are a person who holds your character and integrity above all else, and someone told the masses that you did not follow through on your word, then you too would probably want to make a powerful argument for yourself. So, I do not know the details of this particular situation. I haven't spoken with Jack about it, and I have never spoken with Kyle before. I believe that everyone has the right to express themselves on a public forum like this, but I also feel that none of us are at liberty to pass judgement on others. What I do know for a fact is that I have always respected Jack Murray for the way he has decided to live his life and run his business. Not only does he go out of his way to deliver the best illusions at the fairest prices, but he breaks his back for his customers. Jack really goes the extra mile, and does things other builders would never waste their valuable time on. He does these things because he genuinely cares about the illusions he builds, and the customers he works with. This is why the majority of Jack's customers become his friends. That's how I did. There will always be customers who cannot be satisified. That is a reality of business. But, like numbers, countless testimonials from dozens of happy customers do not lie. If Jack says he did everything in his power to make things right, I believe him. Because that is the Jack Murray I have done business with many times over. And that is the Jack Murray most of you have come to know as well. For both Jack and Kyle, I hope that somehow this problem can be fixed as I am sure that neither of you are out to purposely hurt one another. Magic is a small community and we should all try to do the right thing. I am Your Friend in Magic, Beau Alexander
-Beau Alexander
"Make the Path, Others will Follow" |
|||||||||
estone Regular user 126 Posts |
Have bought Illusions from all the top builders and in my opinion Mr.Jack Murray has been the most down to earth. Not out to rip every penny from your pocket like some.
|
|||||||||
asianmagic Regular user Philadelphia 130 Posts |
Hmm.... Thousands and thousands of dollars spent on wonderful illusions and great service with countless performers. Then, a blow up over a lousy $350 job, trying to help out some 19 year old.
Can't get what he wants from the vendor, so he decides to post it on the internet for all the world to see. When pointed out, he whines, "Oh, I just wanted to see if anybody else had such an experience." It wouldn't be so bad if the Magic Café were private, and only open to members. Unfortunately, any bloke can come along, type in Dream Illusions in any search engine, and this nonsense over a $350 prop comes up on the screen. Doubt you'd see any of the big time builders in Las Vegas putting a hold on big sales to waste their time for this youngster. That's the problem. You get a great guy like Jack Murray who bends over backwards for everybody, and sooner or later some snot comes along to take advantage of a kind heart like his. Well, this thread is a great example to think of when something like this happens to any of us. Next time a "Kyle" comes along, just say, "No, sorry, too busy." Here's an example of the thanks you get for trying to help out an ingrate. Never pays. |
|||||||||
Terry Owens Inner circle Ft. Wayne, Indiana 1707 Posts |
I've had the opportunity to work with Jack when I was considering purchasing an illusion. He was great to work with, and was willing to customize to fit my size...
How sad it is that we've turned a forum that is intended to help one another to a place where we come in and blast someone. There are folks, even who has responded to this thread, who I currently have a major issue with but I haven't ran to the Café to destroy their reputation. A personal dealing should remain just that...so let's act with some professionalism and support one another instead of bash. |
|||||||||
Jack Murray Special user St. Petersburg Fl. 773 Posts |
I would like to take this opportunity to say I'm sorry this issue was brought here. I'm also sorry if my response to Kyle offended anyone! I have a great deal invested in Dream Illusions, and when someone tries to damage it, I take exception to that. I really am [as the above post do attest to] easy to work with and get along with, but what Kyle has done in my opinion, was directed at my reputation and not to "try to understand".
Immediately after our last phone call. Kyle ran to his keyboard and made his post. We probably ALL know, this is not a good idea. I've asked Kyle to do the right thing and come back here and admit he posted when he was angry, and his post does not contain the whole truth, and therefore should apologize. He has told me he doesn't owe me an apology. I am honored with the kind comments I read here. It proves I have done a few things right. I am FAR from perfect and too often I DO let my passion govern my mouth [keyboard]. I know that it totally wrong and again, I'm sorry for that. Life is way too short and I don't need/want enemies, but people need to understand, it really takes two to disagree and compromise is almost always the answer. There truly is no compromise with Kyle. On my honor, I have tried to make him happy, and he refuses to budge an inch. I hope he will read this and not come back here to "explain further". I have made this statement, and I really don't wish to come back to "defend" this again. Again, thank you for your support. Those who I might have angered, I'm sorry!!! I will try harder in the future. Regards Jack Murray Dream Illusions
Jack Murray
http://www.dream-illusions.com |
|||||||||
Magic Patrick Inner circle Minnesota 1591 Posts |
Jack,
As always your are a class act. Good luck to you. BYUDAD |
|||||||||
Banester Special user 669 Posts |
Well in the future don't make parts for discontinued illusions.
Kyle you can now use your illusion for firewood which looks like that's what should have happened when it swelled and chalk the $350 up to a learning experience. There problem solved.
The art of a magician is to create wonder.
If we live with a sense of wonder, our lives become filled with joy -Doug Henning- |
|||||||||
KSMagic2007 Regular user Missouri 200 Posts |
Well it does at least look like this was an isolated incident.
|
|||||||||
Magic Patrick Inner circle Minnesota 1591 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-09-11 10:17, Banester wrote: How about either making one yourself or making the other one work. Shouldn't be too hard either way. I spent at least $350 at the blackjack tables the last time I was in Reno. I simply got up, smiled and walked away. I didn't make a fool of myself infront of anyone. I chalked it up to a learning experience. I think that I am going to take my worn Svengali deck back to the magic store I bought it from 3 years ago and ask for them to replace it for me. The fact that 3 tubes were sent out says a lot about Jack's willingness to rectify the situation. If he doesn't make that style any more than there really isn't anything he can do about it. Now that he is mass producing the KK it is probably more than a $350 cost for him as it is now a specialty item. When I bought my house many moons ago I had granite countertops put in the kitchen. A few years later I chipped off one of the corners and tried to get the warranty to fix it. They didn't have the right color as it was discontinued 2 years prior. These things just happen. The poor guy was going to honor the warranty by replacing the entire counter tops at his cost. I said I would live with it and told him thanks for the guesture. I had it fixed later at $200 dollars. When things are no longer made it is more money to fix it. To ask someone to do so is just wrong as it would take more time and money than $350. I say GET OVER IT and move on. You could get someone in Misery to make you one that would fit perfectly and would be able to measure the illusion right on spot and not have to guess the dimensions. I think that Kyle is being a little rigid in his dealings with Jack. My 2 cents. BYUDAD |
|||||||||
KSMagic2007 Regular user Missouri 200 Posts |
Jack wasn't "guessing" any of the dimensions. That was the whole reason I sent him the original tube - so that he could use it for measurements. I would not have been opposed to paying more for this to be done, but I paid Jack what he quoted me. I am now having a replica made by a local metal worker, and it is costing me considerably less than $300. This was an option all along, but I wanted to go through Jack because it was his product and I liked his work.
Kyle |
|||||||||
magicofCurtis Inner circle Los Angeles 2545 Posts |
I have to chime in here again...
Why are people stating that Kyle should have made it himself? He went to a professional to have his prop professionally produced.... He went to someone that has many praises and positive recommendations. Now something goes wrong and it become Kyles fault? Kyle are you saying that Jack did not produce your product correctly and did not issue a refund? One would think someone of Jacks level will stand behind his work, or was there an agreement that it was just a "TRY" and no promise to deliver a working product? Best of Luck Jack and Kyle.....
Curtis Lovell II
http://www.CurtisLovell.com http://www.MagicofCurtis.com www.facebook.com/curtislovellii Los Angeles, California - U.S.A. |
|||||||||
KSMagic2007 Regular user Missouri 200 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-09-11 12:21, magicofCurtis wrote: Yes. Quote:
On 2008-09-11 12:21, magicofCurtis wrote: No such agreement. The emails and conversations were clear about the product we wanted. Kyle |
|||||||||
Banester Special user 669 Posts |
Quote:
You could get someone in Misery to make you one that would fit perfectly and would be able to measure the illusion right on spot and not have to guess the dimensions. I think that Kyle is being a little rigid in his dealings with Jack. My 2 cents. I think your missing the point. Jack built it, had the original wooden one and the NEW alum. one was not the same. Hey maybe it was from the swelled wood I don't know. Kyle asked him to make something, it didn't fit and now he is out of some money. What's different than say you going to get a new counter top, giving the factory your old one so the sink and whatever else could be cut out, paying for it and then not having it fit? Then having to pay someone else to fix it. PS Misery should be spelled Missouri
The art of a magician is to create wonder.
If we live with a sense of wonder, our lives become filled with joy -Doug Henning- |
|||||||||
Beaudini Magic Loyal user Ohio 259 Posts |
Banester:
I take it you are a friend of Kyle's or have at least seen his Konundrum Kube. We all know the quality of Jack's work, and I am positive that his illusion is not in "fire wood" condition. It is my understanding that Jack makes the spikes/rods for his Konundrum Kubes to fit a certain way. And I am sure there are reasons for that. So I have no doubt in my mind that the replacement Jack made will work the way Jack designed it to work. Now Kyle may want it to work differently, but like Byudad said, most people wouldn't even deal with someone who needed a replacement part for a discontinued model. I'm sure he's done his best to make things right. And that is illustrated in the post he made earlier. How many other builders would take valuable time out of their busy work day, to offer sincere apologies and explain their positions on a public forum? Jack's character can be seen in everything from his illusions to the way he posted earlier. Most reasonable people can see what is going on here... Best Regards, Beau Alexander
-Beau Alexander
"Make the Path, Others will Follow" |
|||||||||
magicofCurtis Inner circle Los Angeles 2545 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-09-11 14:03, Beaudini Magic wrote: The bottom line is JACK DID take on the job and did not properly complete the job. I have had a big name illusion builder in LA replace these special type of bolts on my PL stand for me and he did not even charge for it. I do not think it is the fact things came out wrong. I think Kyle's issue is that the way it was handled....
Curtis Lovell II
http://www.CurtisLovell.com http://www.MagicofCurtis.com www.facebook.com/curtislovellii Los Angeles, California - U.S.A. |
|||||||||
INMOTION Regular user Ohio 167 Posts |
Obviously this is an isolated situation, and it appears to me that a few of you seem to be more worried about fluffing up Dream Illusions reputation then clearly reading what was said. I don't know either of them, however the original post would not defer me away from using Dream Illusions, as the good posts about them far out way the bad.
Forget counter tops and having it built locally, Kyle sent his original prop in to be replicated using a different material. Prop arrives, it doesn't fit. Second prop arrives, it doesn't fit either. Kyle decides to give up and take his loss and has the original shipped back. Now the original doesn't work, because it was damaged in shipping, and the shipping company will not cover damages because of POOR packaging.... Now he is out $350 and is left with a useless prop. If he isn't getting any response or solution to the problem from Dream Illusions, what else should he do? Chalk it up as a learning experience? Sounds like he did by asking for the original back, however now it is useless, and he has nothing! Kyle I did not take your thread as a bashing or tarnishing of Dream Illusions. I took it as a frustrated person who started with something and ended up with nothing, who is looking for answers and your not getting them from the person you should. Bottom line, you have mentioned and so have many others that Dream Illusions is a great Illusion builder. You have a side to your story, and so does Dream Illusions. Something isn't adding up, however it is really none of our business and it most likely in the best interest for both of you to handle this in private if possible. Best Wishes. |
|||||||||
Banester Special user 669 Posts |
I do not know Kyle and I have never dealt with Jack before. I am not, or at least I am not trying to knock Jack's workmanship. I think everyone here, even Kyle states that the illusion/illusions are well made. I have an issue with Kyle paying for something which was not up to par only to have to pay someone else to make another.
Quote:
most people wouldn't even deal with someone who needed a replacement part for a discontinued model Like I stated, he never should have tried to fulfill the order! Ya he was trying to be a good guy and help him out I can sympathise with that; however, the replacement part didn't work and now Kyle's original piece is destroyed from shipping. Please tell me how Kyle is the victim here? Quote:
How many other builders would take valuable time out of their busy work day, to offer sincere apologies and explain their positions on a public forum? Every single vendor who cares about their business! I have seen numerous posts from other vendors defend or correct issue's from people here on the Café. Quote:
Most reasonable people can see what is going on here... Obviously I must not have a clue, I thought it was about someone who purchased an item which was not up to specification, who is out $350, who now has to have someone else build it and pay some more. Did I also mention that his original tube was destroyed during shipping? So please explain to me what is going on.
The art of a magician is to create wonder.
If we live with a sense of wonder, our lives become filled with joy -Doug Henning- |
|||||||||
Christopher Starr Inner circle Heart of America 1850 Posts |
I wanted to add my 2¢ here...
I have done a lot of custom case work with Jack, as well as purchased two of his props. He has always been upfront and above board when giving me production time estimates, and has always delivered whatever within those promised parameters. He stuff is well made, and he takes great pride in it. He follows up with you, to assist you with any questions about his work, or operation/setup of his props. I have also dealt with many other builders that while they may have made quality things, were less about that kind of customer communication. True, Jack is a "passionate" guy with an opinion. He and I have debated several times over different details. He always deferred to what I wanted, and then delivered. When a case I had made was destroyed in shipping, he took it upon himself to collect the damages for it, and then split the shipping cost with me so that I could have my case in time. My only request of the people reading this thread, is not to judge the sum total of Jack's "worth" on this one complaint. He may or may not be in the wrong, and I believe that he has tried, and is trying to resolve the matter privately. It is human nature to listen to bad news. People rarely comment to a company when something has gone right, but are quick to jump on the internet to file a complaint. Chris |
|||||||||
Jack Murray Special user St. Petersburg Fl. 773 Posts |
I swore I would not do this but it seems a small few here just don't have the facts. Kyle didn't send ANY "prop" to me. All he sent was the original tube which he wanted fabricated in Aluminum. All the models I have made since his prototype have a ONE inch space between the tube and the opening. There is a reason for this and I won't discuss it here. So I sent him an "updated" version. Now to be truthful, I did make a mistake because it's been over 6 years and I forgot one detail. Kyle didn't like the new style with the 1" space either so I had one made with a 1/4" space. Now even that is too big. I designed this effect and know this space OR the 1" space is totally important to the effect. I did however get in a hurry and mounted the flange on the wrong end. I told Kyle I would weld and grind the holes up [1/8"]so they wouldn't show, refinish the tube, and mount the flange correctly. He said NO!!! "I want it to fit exactly". I now have the cost of two tubes, one powder coated, 6 hours of driving time to the fabricator and powder coated, and my time to make two wooden collars and paint etc.
All this for $350, plus I payed shipping one way. I can't feel guilty when Kyle has been totally against my knowledge of this effect and insists the 1/4" space is not what he wanted. He says he wanted a "replica" of the old tube. Well the old tube had swelled because it was wood and if I made the new tube "exactly" the same, it wouldn't fit either. Kyle wants it both ways. NOW you have the facts. This is now about "a 1/4", and I'm telling you as the designer there MUST be some space and 25-30 other buyers have the 1" space without all this fuss. Someone here posted that I come here to promote my products so I should take the heat as well. I have payed hundreds of dollars for the privilege to promote my products and the only thing I ask is for the truth here and Kyle's version has left out very important details. I guess when you're being kicked from behind, you're in the lead! Jack
Jack Murray
http://www.dream-illusions.com |
|||||||||
magicross New user Staffordshire England 76 Posts |
I was going to post earlier on this but I think Jack has just said excatly what I was going to say.
The fact is That Kyle has the prototype and there are a few differences in the design of the tube element, as to what it is now. Jack Designed and is the manufacturer of the illusion, There for he knows best how the illusion should be built. its that simple. hope this gets resolved anyway, |
|||||||||
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Grand illusion » » Dream Illusions » » TOPIC IS LOCKED (0 Likes) | ||||||||||
Go to page [Previous] 1~2~3 [Next] |
[ Top of Page ] |
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2024 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved. This page was created in 0.07 seconds requiring 5 database queries. |
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic. > Privacy Statement < |