The Magic Café
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Magical Accessories » » What do you think of Bob Kohler's Holdout System? (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3~4 [Next]
chrismatt
View Profile
Special user
Why would you read any of my
967 Posts

Profile of chrismatt
Harry Anderson "demonstrated" one on the old "Tonight Show with JC" many years back. It was actually in the context of one of his priceless comedy pieces, in which he dropped his pants, connected the device at his bared knees and switched two packets of cards as he stood (in his shorts) and spread his legs! (Imagine an "expose'" on how you switch the packet of Jokers for the 4 Aces in NFW.)

BTW, holdouts are just the sort of contraptions many in our audiences suspect we use to perform our miracles: "It's up your sleeve!"
Details make perfection, but perfection is no detail.
truthteller
View Profile
Inner circle
2586 Posts

Profile of truthteller
So why is it when magicians, the secret keepers of the world, are told they are not privy to something they become so petty and jealous.

I remember when Jeff McBride hosted his first Mystery school. The same phenomenon occurred. Everyone rallied against it, made fun of it, and expressed sentiments such as, "Who is Jeff McBride to tell me I can't be a part of this event."

Remember how many people threw a fit when Max Maven wrote an article about the presumption of amateurs in the world of the professional?

There is an incredible sense of entitlement expressed by the people in magic, and on this board. I believe it was in one of these forums where someone asked where they could "get that trick David Blaine did when he pulled out his heart." How sad that someone actually thinks that all magic is something one can buy over the counter.

Further, no one wants to actually work on finding material. Instead everyone wants to know what someone else thinks about the latest fad and then like lemmings, they parrot these reviews sometimes without ever buying the item themselves. Instead of buying the book no one else has, we insure a generation of cookie cutter magicians by following down the most well trodden paths.

In case there is any doubt, allow me to state my case succinctly, you do not deserve access to ANY secret in magic. Unfortunately we have turned magic into a self feeding commodity and now everyone is on the bandwagon. If a creator wishes to share their material, they are to be commended. But if they desire to keep it secret or exclusive then BUTT OUT!

In the card forum a number of people are actively trying to figure out on of Tamariz's signature effects. Guess what people, if he hasn't published it, LEAVE IT ALONE.

Bob Kohler and Bob Fitch have thankfully decided to give something back to magic by releasing their holdout and their handlings thereof. I have seen the holdout, and it is a tool for artists.

We should be grateful that a handful in the magic world will have the opportunity to benefit from their work and perhaps eventually magic will be a better place because of it. If you are not one of the few that has the resources, then I'm sorry maybe someday you will make the sacrifices necessary in order to benefit from their work.

Fred Kaps was approached by a man at a convention who pestered him about a trick. Fred declined to comment. the upstart said, "but we're both magicians." To which Fred replied, "No sir, I am a magician. You are a gardener."

Now there is nothing wrong with not being a pro in magic. Ramsey was a grocer. But the vast majority of the people on here complaining about the holdout are neither professionals nor Ramseys.

Max commented that we have managed to make something once profound, very trivial. One poster read into this statement that Max was referring to methods. No, Max was referring to magic.

How did we do this? Well, part of it was when magic went "Rotarian" and the magic shop become more interested in commerce than art. We have mistreated magic by releasing her methods. Its is only one of the many causes of this dire effect.

The poster then goes on to talk about how trivial certain methods are. I think he rather proves the point. I find it a shame that someone cares so little about magic that he will flippantly dismiss the beauty, power, and sanctity of these wonderful creations.

The artist does not consider his brushes trivial. The violinist does not consider his bows trivial. The chef does not consider his knives trivial.

I'm sorry he has not matured to the point of being able to see that magic is something of greater importance that that which can be bought and sold to the highest bidder.

Finally the same poster talks about the morphing of these trivial concepts into something powerful, and lauds the work of the end user and not the creator.

Does he not see that the trivializing of these methods makes that transformation all the more difficult? Can this be overcome through excellent presentations and innovative methods, of course. But why should we go out of our way to allow others to make it difficult for us. We should applaud the Bob's for trying to protect their creations not only for themselves, but for those of us lucky enough to be able to employ this wonderful tool.

Of course I would go so far as to say that the vast majority of magicians do NOT ad anything to the effects, choosing to parrot whatever Daryl said on the video or what Blaine did on the special.

In our field it is often the creators who are the only people trying to do something different and meaningful. (Sadly, we also have too many copyist and plagiarists whose desire to take to the lecture circuit outweighs any artistic decency they may have once possessed.) We should be thrilled that Kohler and Fitch have been willing to give magic the opportunity to learn from their work.

Finally, one man asked how can he prove himself without access to the information and tools. The answer is simple. By perfecting that which as already available. that's how the rest of us earned entrée into some of the inner circles. Through years of study (books, not DVDs), hours of practice, countless shows, and the formation of a personal vision and style.

Or you could just go ask what everyone else thought of Silver Shifter.

I find it a shame that magicians have become such a petty group who feel entitled to have everything on a platter handed to them. If you don't like the idea of a lease, good you don't deserve access to the materials. If you think its too expensive, then you lack the vision to transform cost into investment. And if you don't like the exclusivity, then do something worthy of recognition and become included.
Micheal Leath
View Profile
Inner circle
1046 Posts

Profile of Micheal Leath
Well said!!! I myself can't afford something like the holdout, but I applaud Kohler for trying to keep some secrets a secret. Everyone does not have the right to know everything and have everything just handed to them.
Bobrem
View Profile
New user
Maryland
10 Posts

Profile of Bobrem
Very well said truthteller. I only found out yesterday what a holdout was and I can still tell great wisdom when I hear it. Smile

Cheers, Bob
Steve Hook
View Profile
Inner circle
Raleigh, NC, USA
1264 Posts

Profile of Steve Hook
Truthteller:

Applause for your post is rolling in from Orlando. Well done!

Steve H Smile
Like Bonnie Raitt said, "I miss Little Feat more than I miss being 8 years old." Thanks for the concerts + recordings, Lowell, Richie, and Paul!
RandyStewart
View Profile
Inner circle
Texas (USA)
1989 Posts

Profile of RandyStewart
I have a hunch that those who use the Fitch/Kohler holdout for entertainment or profit <grin> wouldn't be caught posting anywhere one way or the other.
The device, from original to current model is beautiful! If you have a use for it, price and agreeing to licensing is no issue. Who cares?!

It boils down to your intended use to accomplish a "priceless" and secret effect. Smile
Bobrem
View Profile
New user
Maryland
10 Posts

Profile of Bobrem
So I went to all the links that you guys posted and now I'm wondering which is the best for all around magic, not just card stuff? I mean like balls and coins and other stuf like that. Smile

Cheers, Bob

Maybe I didn't ask the question right. which hold out is the best one for all around use?

Come on, you guys, give me a little help here. Smile

Cheers, Bob
Darren Roberts
View Profile
Loyal user
222 Posts

Profile of Darren Roberts
Wow,

I can now postpone the purchase of my next magic book since I learned so much from truthteller's post.

Bravo! Smile

Darren
mdspark
View Profile
Special user
783 Posts

Profile of mdspark
Bobrem,

No one seems to want to offer practical suggestions, so I will try. I know there are folks on here more experienced than I...but here goes.

As for versatility, you would need a holdout that you could use various "attachments" ment to handle different items, such ascards, balls, silk, coins, etc... I am most familiar with the Miller Type holdout in this regard. That is what I use and am most comfortable with.

I have no idea if Antonio's The Perfect Holdout can adapt and use different attachments as mentioned above. Maybe someone could shed some light on this...come on guys....
rnaviaux
View Profile
Loyal user
278 Posts

Profile of rnaviaux
truthteller makes some very good points.

I looked at Mr. Risers site. Looks like he has some nice products. But I can do without the covert innuendos.

Mr. Kohler has a very good grasp on marketing fundamentals though. I wouldn't be suprised if has read "Positionng" by Al Reis and Jack trout. (I'm sorry..all you freeloaders are going to have to buy the book and read it.)Mr. Kohler has certainly positioned himself well.

Sincerely
Ozer4
View Profile
Veteran user
NYC
329 Posts

Profile of Ozer4
Fact of the matter is, Bob Kohler has decided to market magic in a new way, and I wanted to see what people think of this approach. The trend of magicians becoming petty and constantly quarreling over who originated what move, or who is freeloading and stealing stuff has gotten to the point of degrading our artform. The new "leasing" program for the Holdout strikes me, personally, as ridiculous. Especially the part about somebody dying and their kin having to contact the owners to transfer the lease. Give me a break. I agree that the creators are free to market their effects whichever way they see fit, be it with or without tact. I for one would never throw away my money on such a product, no matter how good it is, as I don't like the way it is being marketed. The threatening of frivolous lawsuits disgusts me, and I see magic going down the drain in the face of such new ploys.
truthteller
View Profile
Inner circle
2586 Posts

Profile of truthteller
How do you see magic "going down the drain"?

Bob is implementing a legal system which attempts to give him some control over HIS intellectual property. Would you say software liscensing agreements have been responsible for sending that industry down the drain? (It's a sincere question, I'm trying to understand your point.)

Further, by requiring people to agree to the non-disclosure agreements, it will force someone to consider their purchase more carefully, even if indeed the promise of a lawsuit is just a promise. For the vast majority of us who have signed up with the intent to use the product, there is little to worry about. But for someone who would be pruchasing with the intent to profit illegally from their work, it could prove discouraging. Is he to be faulted for that?

I also do not see this as a matter of pettiness over who invented what. Instead it stems from a deep respect for the art and an attempt to protect her secrets from being mass distributed and thereby diluted. How can protecting magic and its methods ever been seen as sending it down the drain?

Today, there is more information available to anyone who wants to avail themselves of it, but there seems to be less creativity and originality in the performances being offered by those calling themselves magicians. Why is that?

Most of the newest video clips I see are nothing more than old ideas, moderately varied, with presentations that could have been lifted from any of the tricks on any of the Easy to Master tapes. Sure there are exceptions, but I want to believe (and maybe some of our elder statesmen can inform me if my assertion is accurate) that "back in the day," while there may have been fewer people involved in magic as a hobby, the ratio of creative/innovative performers to the number of copyist dabblers was a more positive one.

Now, Ozer, which do you see as contributing more to magic going down the drain: that one man is trying to protect something he feels is important and insure that the information goes only to those who are willing to treat it responsibly, or the fact that every magic shop on the interent will sell any secret they can get their hands on to any kid with a paypal account?
Gidon
View Profile
New user
Tacoma, Wa
80 Posts

Profile of Gidon
I think Bob Kohler is a good magician but he seems to be on the periphery of th ecommunity. I'm not a fan of his gimmicks however but nothing against the man that's for sure.
Chris Harland
"No WAY...wait...do that again."
truthteller
View Profile
Inner circle
2586 Posts

Profile of truthteller
Maybe we should ask why he, and most of the truly talented "workers" in our biz, choose to remain on the periphery.

At lunch with Racherbaumer, we were talking about just this. His reply was to the effect that because of the way things have gotten, you (the generic you) will NEVER get to see the REAL real work.

What he meant by that, was because of the fact we have changed magic from art to commodity, those who make their livings being the artistic creators in our field will never share their work with those in the mainstream. To do so, is to sacrifice their labors. Why? Because the Gregory Wilson's of the world are only too eager to put out another video tape.

In point of fact, that you claim you are not a fan of his gimmicks tells me that you have never seen any of the show stopping, truly unfathomable pieces with which he makes a living. Most magicians haven't. Instead they only know Bob through what he has chosen to release to the mainstream. Some of us have been privy to view pieces which are the manifestation of years of his investment.

It is a shame that our "where can I buy it" mentality has created an environment where performers like Bob do not feel safe sharing their gems with the mainstream.

And, at the risk of opening a can of worms, in spite of the amount of new material you see being released each day, there is a depth of magic originality which is still, thankfully, being guarded and shared among those who have earned entry into such circles. It is rather like the old paradox, most magicians are in a position that they do not even know what they do not know.

Perhaps it is not Bob who is on the periphery of your community, but it is the majority who remain outside the periphery of his.
wert
View Profile
Regular user
164 Posts

Profile of wert
Quote:
On 2003-04-20 03:39, truthteller wrote:
.... or the fact that every magic shop on the interent will sell any secret they can get their hands on to any kid with a paypal account?
Bit of a naff analogy here.

The secrets have been available forever. The 'secret' of the holdout is available to anyone at Borders who decides that they want to flip through Expert at the Card Table. I'm sure Kohler's device is a technical marvel, but the basic concept is out there for just about anyone who wants it. While the internet makes it easier to obtain these "secrets," in truth they have always been there for anyone wanting to make a token effort to get them.

Back in the day, it was a simple matter of walking into a magic shop (as they were more prevalent back then) or simply using mail order.

And what exactly is wrong with kids buying magic equipment on the web?

How is it any different from those of us who mail ordered magic or bought in in shops when we were young?

I think the "lease" idea is interesting, but I don't see it becoming popular.

Will we see a future where many magicians take this approach in an attempt to protect their intellectual property? Will we see magicians willing to hire "teams of lawyers" to sue anyone suspected of disrepecting their "trade secrets"?

I doubt it.
truthteller
View Profile
Inner circle
2586 Posts

Profile of truthteller
The secret to Sam the Bellhop had been around for decades, but it wasn't until Malone did it on TV that everybody decided to buy the Magic inc. manuscript.

The Koornwinder car had been around for decades, but it wasn't until Tamariz did it on TV that everybody went out and started knocking off their own card finding buggies.

And so COULD be the same for the holdout.

Yes, the holdout concept is described in many places, but the Bob's are releasing a system which will take the basic concept far beyond many people's expectations. (And I'm talking handling, not just technology.) Because of that, everybody and their brother will want to jump on the bandwagon.

I do not believe this is what Bob wants to see happen.

But let's talk about the availability of information. The holdout is in print, but what are the odds that someone who stumbles on it will look at that device and be able to fathom what potential it holds? (How many people knew the "Balducci" levitation but didn't realize the impact it could have until...)

Now, let's say some very diligent person finds the source for information on their own and they start tinkering with it, what are the odds they will replicate the 40 combined years of work the Bob's have put into it? Slim to none I would say. Unless of course it becomes readily available and they can just pick it up online. Again, I don't think the Bob's want that either; and as its THEIR work, it's THEIR right.

Finally, who will even go through the trouble of finding it in Border's when they can come on here and have everyone tell them what it does? What's wrong with making them work a little? (Asking in a magic forum is not work.) And what's wrong and just not letting them know, why should we be helping everyone to some of our most powerful tools just because they ask?

Now my question, which you snipped out of context was:

"which do you see as contributing more to magic going down the drain: that one man is trying to protect something he feels is important and insure that the information goes only to those who are willing to treat it responsibly, or the fact that every magic shop on the interent will sell any secret they can get their hands on to any kid with a paypal account?"

Which one of these situations do you feel is better for magic? If you can't tell, I would prefer the former.

I do not think the free and easy proliferation of magical ideas has led to anything good. Sure we have more people playing magicians, but the innovation curve has yet to spike.

But to your questions, How is buying on the internet different from the old days? Well, in the "real" old days, they wouldn't sell to you unless they knew you.

Also, with the wide spread availability of information, people seem to value it less. This is one reason why we are plagued with so many lecturers and videographers who only have the most minute of variations to offer as their "original" material. Since they didn't have to work/fight to earn this information, they do not hesitate to abuse it for their own gain.

Worse still, many do not find it important to track down accurate credits. Do you think this will encourage the true innovators to keep sharing when everything they do gets appropriated by someone else?

I saw a coin tape recently where the performer taught 3 routines, none of which had he created and his variations were minor at best.

I thought magic was supposed to be unique and special, what's with all of these carbon copy "creators"?

The point isn't that people are buying on the internet. The point is that this information has become totally available to anyone without regard to their merit. (And for the record, magic shops devolved into something similar, but at least there was some element of human contact there).

Finally, I will go so far as to say that this attitude is part in parcel the cause of all the exposure specials we get so upset over. If anyone with enough cash is entitled to purchase any secret they like, then there is NOTHING we can do to stop them from doing whatever they like with that secret, even its its to expose it to millions of people on television.

This is the bed we have made for ourselves. Bob is at least trying to tuck in the sheets.

Finally you ask:

Will we see a future where many magicians take this tact in attempt to protect their intellectual property? Will we see magicians willing to hire "teams of lawyers" to sue anyone suspected of disrepecting their "trade secrets"?

You reply, "I doubt it."

I reply, "I hope so!"
wert
View Profile
Regular user
164 Posts

Profile of wert
On 2003-04-20 05:45, truthteller wrote:

But let's talk about the availability of information. The holdout is in print, but what are the odds that someone who stumbles on it will look at that device and be able to fathom what potential it holds? (How many people knew the "Balducci" levitation but didn't realize the impact it could have until...)

When something disappears, what are the odds of them thinking "it went up his sleeve?"

Again, I don't think the Bob's want that either; and as its THEIR work, it's THEIR right.

Of course it is. I never said it wasn't. I simply said I feel his solution will probably not be a popular one.

why should we be helping everyone to some of our most powerful tools just because they ask?

Well, the price and intricate design of the device would discourage most dilletantes I would think. And I believe it would do so without the need for lawyers and non-disclosure agreements. Sure, some might try to rip off the device, but if kohlers is truly the highest quality version of the device, then people would likely flock to it regardless. If Kohler truly wants to keep it secret, then perhaps he shouldn't license it at all.

I do not think the free and easy proliferation of magical ideas has led to anything good. Sure we have more people playing magicians, but the innovation curve has yet to spike.

And how do you feel that involving lawyers and "trade secrets" is going to put the genie back into the bottle?

Well, in the "real" old days, they wouldn't sell to you unless they knew you.

Nonsense. One could buy nearly any book or device via post without having to have people "know you". That is, assuming your check cleared. The "good old days" weren't often as good as we would sometimes like to remember them.

Also, with the wide spread availability of information, people seem to value it less.

"People". Who are these "people"? And you make the blanket statement that they "seem" to value things less? Seems like a heap of assumptions being made there.

This is one reason why we are plagued with so many lecturers and videographers who only have the most minute of variations to offer as their "original" material. Since they didn't have to work/fight to earn this information, they do not hesitate to abuse it for their own gain.

And in the wash of mediocre material, one can sometimes find greatness. Sometimes you have to wade through a lot of crap to find something worthwhile. Would that qualify as the "work" you feel that beginners need to do to be "worthy" of access to magical secrets? And who sets the standard of who is "worthy"? You? A panel of "inner circle" types?

Worse still, many do not find it important to track down accurate credits. Do you think this will encourage the true innovators to keep sharing when everything they do gets appropriated by someone else?

Kind of irrelevant to the point. Which is how people feel about Kohlers license. There are plenty of other "crediting" discussion threads if you want to discuss it there.

The point isn't that people are buying on the internet. The point is that this information has become totally available to anyone without regard to their merit.

Even in the “good old days”, One could walk into a magic shop (or order via catalog) and get just about anything one wanted with no test of ones "merit". Perhaps we should require that all potential buyers of magic effects and books pass a text before they are allowed to purchase?

If anyone with enough cash is entitled to purchase any secret they like, then there is NOTHING we can do to stop them from doing whatever they like with that secret, even its its to expose it to millions of people on television.

Now you're talking about exposure. We're discussing the license remember?

You reply, "I doubt it."

I reply, "I hope so!"

I reply "Wishful thinking."
p.b.jones
View Profile
Inner circle
Milford Haven. Pembrokeshire wales U.K.
2642 Posts

Profile of p.b.jones
When something disappears, what are the odds of them thinking "it went up his sleeve?"


Hi,
The odds are VERY VERY HIGH with lay people.
Phillip
Micheal Leath
View Profile
Inner circle
1046 Posts

Profile of Micheal Leath
When something disappears, what are the odds of them thinking "it went up his sleeve?"


You can do oh so much more with the holdout. It's more than just a device the make something disappear. I very rarely have someone say it's up your sleeve, and when they do, it's said as a joke. I don't see why some people have a problem with the lease agreement. If you don't plan on exposing it or using it for anything but magic, then what's the problem?

I've said it before, everyone does not have the right to know everything. I've been to Vegas where, at a certian magic shop, they will sell to anyone who walks by. They gather big crowds of people and tell them that for X amount of dollars that they too can do the same trick Copperfield or some other magician did. They don't care about advancing the art of magic. All they care about is making money.

Not that there is anything wrong with making money. It seems to me that some just want it all handed to them with no work whatsoever. They say things like if they don't have access to the tools, then how can they prove themselves and get into the inner circle? Easy, you have access to plenty of tools, and if they aren't what you want, then develop your own ideas.

Now there's an idea. Come up with your own stuff. That will be the day. Now, I'm not saying that everything I do is my own material, but I'm not one of the ones complaining about the lease on the holdout. I am happy with the tools that I do have access to. Sure I would like to have a device like Kohler's holdout, but I accept the fact that I can't have it right now. I am happy to be in possession of some of his other great creations such as The Black Envelope.

A couple of months ago, I was able to save the money to order his Ultimate 3 Fly and I look forward to receiving it soon. He does not have to release these things. They are his creations. He can release them in whatever way he wants to.
Nir Dahan
View Profile
Inner circle
Munich, Germany
1390 Posts

Profile of Nir Dahan
hello all,

I don't know the working behind the holdout and I never saw its amazing properties, but just a quick look at the price - $1800. let's read it again - $1800!!!
I am 14 years into magic with a library of over 100 books, and I am sure I can still buy books in one third the price, learn similar effects, and at the end of the day become a better magician.
if I were bob and I had such a great device I wouldnt even try to sell/lease it in such a way but only on personal basis.
but this is a free market, let the man charge what he wishes...
nir
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Magical Accessories » » What do you think of Bob Kohler's Holdout System? (0 Likes)
 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3~4 [Next]
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2021 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.32 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL