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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Magical Accessories » » What do you think of Bob Kohler's Holdout System? (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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wert
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Quote:
On 2003-04-20 12:36, Micheal Leath wrote:

When something disappears, what are the odds of them thinking "it went up his sleeve?"


You can do oh so much more with the holdout. It's more than just a device the make something disappear.
Yep, but with the most common types of holdout, you can't easily roll up your sleeves while performing to dispel that notion.

I remember Blackstone Junior would often joke about it on stage when presenting his "Vanishing Birdcage".

And remember, just because people don't say "It's up your sleeve" to your face doesn't mean that they don't walk away thinking exactly that.
Micheal Leath
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"It's up his sleeve" is usually an ignorant explanation. They sometimes give that explanation to effects that any logical-thinking person would see is not the answer (even if it is). I don't waste my time trying to fool ignorant people.
wert
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Quote:
On 2003-04-20 14:33, Micheal Leath wrote:
It's up his sleeve is usually an ignorant explaination.
In the case of holdout use, it wouldn't be "ignorant" at all now would it?

Quote:
I don't waste my time trying to fool ignorant people.
Nice attitude to have towards your audience.
truthteller
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I think the Kohler/Fitch holdout is the most versatile tool available, without sacrificing efficiency for that versatility.

If you could ennumerate a SPECIFIC use you were after, I might be able to point you in a different direction. But if you're going for a true system that will allow for growth and creativity, the F/K is the machine to use.

Brad
Tim Trono
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It is AMAZING to me that there are now three pages on this subject. Just several years back you had to PROVE yourself to have access to some of the material of this caliber.

Also, I think it is important to stress that the IMPORTANCE of the Fitch Kohler Holdout is NOT about some wonderful mechanical device. It is a marvel BUT the real importance is in the fact that you are provided with YEARS and YEARS of experience passed on to the purchaser... how to stand, how to move, how to repair it, how to structure effects, etc. Such devices are in fact, as pointed out several times, very old in concept. What Fitch and Kohler are ultimately selling is years and years of EXPERIENCE, sweat and tears, etc. WHY should anyone just give up all of their hard work for virtually no pay, in a manner just to please everyone, etc. Bob and Bob are trying to protect all of their time and effort. They are not doing the licensing to give the standard purchaser a hard time. They are doing this to protect some scumbag from exposing this on TV and they will absolutely go after them if they do. Why are so many putting them down when they are taking extra time and effort to PROTECT our art, to protect something we supposedly love? Someone asked if this was $100 or $150 if we'd be hearing all of this hoopla - I doubt it - it's just because so many feel they should get EVERYTHING handed to them on a silver platter.

I also want to again stress that this negative put downs, etc., really DISCOURAGES artists from releasing ANYTHING. Don't you think Bob Kohler and Fitch read these boards? Don't you think they think "WHY?" to all of their time, efforts, and expenses when they read people directly or indirectly putting them down? If you have trouble answering this last question I can give you the answer... it is "YES!".

Ninety percent of the people posting here, with all due respect, don't even know what the Kohler/Fitch Holdout is, have not seen it, do not know what it is capable of, do not know what is included with the purchase price, etc. HOW, in all good faith, can some of those people make digs, negative comments, etc. Those people are speaking without knowing and this is wrong, it is petty, and it is destructive. Don't you think some of these negative comments will make people second guess their decision, possibly not buy the item, and thus hurt the creators who have spent so much time, money, and effort. Now don't get me wrong... I am all for free speech as long as it is done with responsibility for ones comments. It is irresponsible to make comments for something you don't know anything about. And again, I would urge you to THINK, reread your post, and consider the consequences overall before you hit the "post" button. Such posts DO discourage the artist and other artists who "may" be thinking of releasing an item.

The Fitch/Kohler Holdout has NOT even been released yet and we have 3 pages with multiple individuals putting it down, putting Bob Kohler down, etc. REALLY don't you think Kohler can do whatever he wants, charge whatever he pleases with his release. Compare it to the REAL word. Why are some cars significantly more expensive... the same reasons you think of probably apply to the F/K Holdout. Look, if you disagree with how this is sold/leased, if you don't like the price point, if you don't see the value, then DON'T lease it. Go spend your money on something else instead of putting down the team that has been working on this so hard. You are NOT entitled to necessarily have it.

This amazes me...

Go back and read "truthteller's" post. Excellent job "truthteller".

Also remember... this is SUPPOSED to be a brotherhood.... NOT a "screw everyone else" hood. More and more I see politics and bickering hurting our art; I see people acting so disrespectfully of others time, efforts, and work; I see people devaluing the secrets; etc. I think this is precisely why Kohler, as an example, has to go to the extra efforts to protect HIS investment.

Tim Trono
Robin Parker
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I'm really tired of all the whining about the lease agreement and the price; I'm more interested in what is possible with the device? I've never used a holdout and I know little about the device; I like to hear more about the possibilities. If the lease and the price turn you off, don't purchase it. It's about that simple. Have a nice day!
Dan Watkins
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Quote:
On 2003-04-20 17:53, Tim Trono wrote:
I also want to again stress that this negative put downs, etc., really DISCOURAGES artists from releasing ANYTHING. Don't you think Bob Kohler and Fitch read these boards? Don't you think they think "WHY?" to all of their time, efforts, and expenses when they read people directly or indirectly putting them down?


I'd hope that the Bobs know that those doing the !#$^&#*! here were never going to be their customers. The fact is, this system will never be sold in massive quantity. Those that know what it does and have the money and purpose to use it will get it and probably not talk much about it. Those that don't will remain in ignorant bliss (or turmoil over the fact they can't have one) and strangely enough, do the most negative posting on the internet about it.
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Micheal Leath
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If you don't like the lease agreement, then don't get it. If you want it, but don't have the money, then save up your money to get it. I certainly don't have the money, but when I do, I will get it if it is still available.

This is the similiar to the argument that was had about U3F. MOST of the ones who said that U3F was not worth the money were the ones who had not seen or purchased it, or didn't have the money to purchase it. I think the same thing is happening with the holdout.

I have read the information about the lease on Kohler's website and do not see anything that I would disagree with. I really don't see why anyone would have a problem with it, unless they had other reasons for wanting to purchase it. The lease allows you to use it just like anything else you might buy. No, you can't make modifications to it, but with all the work that Bob and others have put into it over so many years, why would you want to?

There are a few who seem to think that Bob would not go after or be able to take legal action against those who violated the agreement. I'm no lawyer, but I'm sure Bob knows what he is doing and will take action against anyone who violates the agreement.

I guess you just can't make everyone happy though. I hope that Bob Kohler releases more of his creations. Maybe he can release that Rising Card routine I have heard about? Maybe he should make everthing that he releases a limited edition to help keep it from being overexposed?

Again, I think it is wonderful that Kohler is trying to preserve and advance the art of magic.
p.b.jones
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"It's up his sleeve" is usually an ignorant explanation. They sometimes give that explanation to effects that any logical-thinking person would see is not the answer (even if it is). I don't waste my time trying to fool ignorant people.

Hi,
I often work for some very intelligent logical thinking people and just like using flourishes (in my opinion) reduces the magical effect to a lay audience, so does having sleeves when working close up.

The first conclusion people come to about a magician is that they use their sleeves. just ask them and they do not just think we use them for vanishes either. OK, this may be illogical to us magicians but that's life.

I think it is also why sleeving fools magicians because we know that normally they have little to do with the method and we are not looking for them. I some times use a pendulum holdout. I used to use it a lot for one effect but a member of the Café kindly shared an alternate method with me which, on reflection, was an improvement.
Phillip
Micheal Leath
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It is rare for someone to tell me that they think something is up my sleeve. The ones who do say it, say it as a joke. I think that if you present the effects in the right manner, then they will not think that you used your sleeves (even if you did). Of course, that is just my opinion though.
Bobrem
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I always wear either a nice suit or a blazer with slacks and dressy shirt when I perform. I think having a suit jacket *without* sleeves would look a little funny. again just my opinion- warts and all.
:bigsmile:


Cheers, Bob
grant_gilson
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I think the inventor can (and will) charge whatever he feels it is worth. He has every right to protect his idea any way he wants.

I am sure from the many posts the product is great and worth every penny.

From my own experience as a small businessman people are against contracts of almost any kind due to the fact they have been screwed in the past. It really does not matter that the contract would only have enforcement if the buyer does something 'bad'; people don't like contracts. A recent survey in the paper had the cell phone industry rated second to last (just ahead of used car salesman) due to the early termination fee located in the 'contract'.

Most people are not aware when anyone does work on your house (say plumbing) there are laws to forcebly evict and auction your house right out from under you if you do not pay. These laws are on the books. However if you tell someone, in advance, in a contract, you have the right to evict and foreclose on their house for non-payment of service I have literally had a woman come across a desk to attack me.

So Mr. Kohler is in the unfortunate position of trying to change the way magic is sold to control it and (some) people don't like it. That's the way its going to be.

(By the way - I lost the sale to that woman! Go figure)

Grant
A.J.
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It amazes me that people would complain about a contractual agreement that Kohler and Fitch have put in place to protect your investment in the Holdout system. Didn't we all have enough of the Masked Magician and his exploits? Let's do everything we can to protect great magic, including this fantastic utility item, from unneeded exposure.

Rather than complain about a contract...think about why it has been put in place--to protect your investment and all the great magic that flows therefrom. We need to think out-of-the-box to advance Magic into the next Millenium...thank goodness people like Kohler and Fitch are thinking about these issues for our benefit.

And, by the way, everything in life revolves around a contract of some sort...car lease/purchase, cable tv, cell phone, internet hook-up, home utilities, on and on.
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