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MAKMagic Special user I got banned for one of my 555 Posts |
Where's all the money going?
Congress Tries To Fix What It Broke http://ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=306544845091102 AIG’s Dangerous Collapse http://www.financialsense.com/fsu/editor......917.html Ex-SEC Official Blames Agency for Blow-Up of Broker-Dealers http://www.nysun.com/business/ex-sec-off......p/86130/ Bank of Japan announces dollar swap with US Fed http://www.thestandard.com.hk/breaking_n......20080918 Bank of England announces dollar swap deal with US Fed http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5iwJ9......2BDKMppA US CRISIS: CENTRAL BANKS ANNOUNCE COORDINATED INTERVENTION http://www.agi.it/business/news/20080918......art.html Coordinated Central Bank Action to Improve US$ Liquidity http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/publicati....../054.htm
.:Michael Kelley
On the Level, By the Square |
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EsnRedshirt Special user Newark, CA 895 Posts |
Leland- it's not 100% trustworthy; it all depends on who's doing the watching (and who's watching the watchers.) The point is, oversight requires records and full disclosure. I know- that gets into red tape and bureaucracy, but it's a necessary evil. The knowledge that this information is available to an oversight committee (with multiple, conflicting, and uncertain agendas) tends to encourage honesty as a way to cover one's rear end.
Lets put it this way- there is a tendency for some of the people running corporations to be a bit, shall we say, cut throat and greedy, as well as risk-takers? It's a personality trait that helps them be such effective business men. However, that type of person has few compunctions against making business decisions that may be somewhat unethical, such as loaning a ton of money to sub-prime borrowers (translation- people who are more likely to not pay the loan back), then bundling and selling off these loans and completely absolving their company of any risk. Remember- in many cases, the buyers of these loan packages were assured that they were completely sound investments. Remember- the Glass-Steagall Acts were passed specifically as a result of investigations which revealed widespread corruption and conflicts of interest in the industry which may have lead to the Great Depression. Once they were repealed in 1999, human nature took its course, and, well, you can see the results on Wall Street this week. -Erik
Self-proclaimed Jack-of-all-trades and google expert*.
* = Take any advice from this person with a grain of salt. |
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Leland Stone Inner circle 1204 Posts |
Hey, Erik:
Thanks for the thoughtful response. I agree with you about human nature, and in theory about transparency and accountability. I disagree with your generalisation about the lack of ethical compunction in certain businessmen, and I'm not sure about your statement regarding the necessary evil of bureaucracy. What I wonder is what power government has to mitigate the baser inclinations and actions of unethical persons? That is, those who are corrupt will be corrupt whether they are in business (with limited power and often significant accountability) or in government (often with greater power and less accountability). Since we agree on the constraining power of transparency and accountability, why is it necessary and/or desirable to have that power administered by the government (with its own potential for corruption, malfeasance, and incompetence), rather than the market? |
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kregg Inner circle 1950 Posts |
So, stocks have fallen around .07 for the week and this is cause for leaping off tall buildings?
POOF!
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kcg5 Inner circle who wants four fried chickens and a coke 1868 Posts |
A lot of the money went into the actual ground in iraq, in the form of metal. I think.
and look what it got us.
Nobody expects the spanish inquisition!!!!!
"History will be kind to me, as I intend to write it"- Sir Winston Churchill |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
Lets say that the world needs 100 tankers of oil a day and that the suppliers pump up a 100 a day to meet that demand.
I have an idea! Lets buy ten of them and hide the contents and see what happens. The world would think oh no there is shortage of oil and so the price goes up, I guess. Then we could sell our ten at the inflated price. I am not a financial wizard but it seems to me that by this simple method an illusion caused by the temporary absence of reality created. Are there methods being used to create wonderful illusions in the world I wonder. After all as Erdnase said, manipulation is more profitable than speculation. Isn’t Wall Street a place where wonderful grand illusions are presented?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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EsnRedshirt Special user Newark, CA 895 Posts |
Leland:
On government versus private oversight- in theory, since we're in a Representative Democracy, by having government oversight, the overseers are directly accountable to elected officials, who are ultimately accountable to the people who elected them. That also means the records are, to some degree, available for public scrutiny. More eyes on those records, more chances to spot fishy bookkeeping. Private overseers are only accountable to their appointer and their stockholders. If they fudge the numbers on their reports, it's much more difficult to check- and they have a vested interest in making things look like they're going smoothly, so their stockholders don't panic. I'm aware that government oversight doesn't go as smoothly as the theory states, but we've also recently seen how private oversight tends to sink into corruption as well (see Arthur Andersen LLC for one example.) The argument will, of course, center around how trustworthy we believe each entity to be; since we disagree on how ethical businesses tend to be when given the reigns, we may ultimately disagree on the end result. But at least we might understand each other's take on it. -Erik
Self-proclaimed Jack-of-all-trades and google expert*.
* = Take any advice from this person with a grain of salt. |
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kcg5 Inner circle who wants four fried chickens and a coke 1868 Posts |
Tommy, the market is basically an exercise in psychology. we believe this piece of paper is worth 100 bucks, but its just paper.
Nobody expects the spanish inquisition!!!!!
"History will be kind to me, as I intend to write it"- Sir Winston Churchill |
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MAKMagic Special user I got banned for one of my 555 Posts |
As is your $100
"So you think that money is the root of all evil?" said Francisco d'Anconia. "Have you ever asked what is the root of money? Money is a tool of exchange, which can't exist unless there are goods produced and men able to produce them. Money is the material shape of the principle that men who wish to deal with one another must deal by trade and give value for value. Money is not the tool of the moochers, who claim your product by tears, or of the looters, who take it from you by force. Money is made possible only by the men who produce. Is this what you consider evil? "When you accept money in payment for your effort, you do so only on the conviction that you will exchange it for the product of the effort of others. It is not the moochers or the looters who give value to money. Not an ocean of tears not all the guns in the world can transform those pieces of paper in your wallet into the bread you will need to survive tomorrow. Those pieces of paper, which should have been gold, are a token of honor--your claim upon the energy of the men who produce. Your wallet is your statement of hope that somewhere in the world around you there are men who will not default on that moral principle which is the root of money, Is this what you consider evil? -Francisco D'Anconia Atlas Shrugged
.:Michael Kelley
On the Level, By the Square |
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Leland Stone Inner circle 1204 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-09-18 12:46, EsnRedshirt wrote: Hm. I concede that humans (including those in business) tend towards duplicity, greed, laziness...you get the idea. It's an entire laundry list of moral flaws. Being of the Smith/Friedman camp, I question whether government is ideally suited for the purpose of guarding the henhouse...even in a representative republic such as ours. Especially when the primary function of bureaucracy is NOT public service, but self-expansion and perpetuation. Add to this concern the inertia of elected and appointed officials being slow to respond to their constituents' concerns, plus their typical inability to act decisively and an often-lacking qualification for the task, and the end result -- for me -- is a lack of credibility. Brownie didn't do such a hot job with NOLA 'cause he was really a horse show manager, right? |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
Money is magic as each little bank note grants you a wish. We do not fly on airplanes we fly on the magic carpets called money.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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balducci Loyal user Canada 227 Posts |
Leland, you use big words and sometimes a simple guy like me has trouble following your thoughts.
I have the opinion that you don't like government regulation. Okay. But at the same time, completely unfettered free markets have also demonstrated, time and again, that they do not really work well either. So what would you like to see, what do you consider is the happy compromise? Or is there some less obvious 'third way'? Incidentally, you wrote: "Especially when the primary function of bureaucracy is NOT public service, but self-expansion and perpetuation." I have to disagree with that. It really depends on the management involved. Public sector bureaucracies are no different than divisions within some corporations in this respect. Some of them could care less about doing what is good for the company or its shareholders, only what is good (in terms of self-expansion, perpetuation, empire-building) for the division and its managers.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
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EsnRedshirt Special user Newark, CA 895 Posts |
MAKMagic- you do realize that Francisco D'Anconia (and by extension, Ayn Rand) got that quote wrong? It's "For the love of money is the root of all evil..." (1 Timothy 6:10) Adding back that one omitted word kind of makes Rand's whole tirade a little pointless, doesn't it?
Leland- The thing is, I'm of the school of thought that government is designed to be slow and ponderous. It's dangerous to have legislation rammed through at a breakneck pace- you can get all sorts of messes on the books before anyone realizes the greater repercussions. As for Brownie, there are those who hold to the theory that when you have politicians who don't like government, they make it a point to break government, point to the mess saying, "See, it doesn't work," and promptly attempt to privatize it. (See Thomas Frank's The Wrecking Crew.) Regardless of whether you agree with his theory- remember that push to privatize social security, putting all that money into stocks, bonds, and mutual funds? Doesn't sound like such a hot investment right now, does it?
Self-proclaimed Jack-of-all-trades and google expert*.
* = Take any advice from this person with a grain of salt. |
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kregg Inner circle 1950 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-09-18 16:15, EsnRedshirt wrote: If the government can take 16% of ones earned income and not invest the money, or guarantee that the individual will ever see a dime of it; then the government could also force the individual to purchase conservative vehicles like I-bonds or CD's. Regardless, if the person died before retirement, the family would inherit the savings free and clear.
POOF!
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-09-18 16:15, EsnRedshirt wrote: Was that an attempt at disingenuous irony? For the ill-read here - the speech from Atlas Shrugged is set up at a party where one of the characters gets ticked off and decides to let the "moochers" have it about their hypocrisy and inform them that money in a capitalist society is not what THEY say "the root of all evil" but instead the very being, icon and symbol of the values we hold as good. And agreed that most folks will misquote the Bible verse and ... might benefit from reading that speech in its entirety. Here's the setup and start of the speech: Quote:
Standing unnoticed on the edge of the group, Rearden heard a woman, who had large diamond earrings and a flabby, nervous face, ask tensely, "Senor d'Anconia, what do you think is going to happen to the world?" http://www.working-minds.com/money.htm * might make one heck of a patter (tirade) for a routine of some kind.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Leland Stone Inner circle 1204 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-09-18 15:42, balducci wrote: Fair enough. I tend towards libertarianism, not anarchy. I would not see the market unbound from laws against fraud, for example, nor allow manufacturers to flush toxic waste into their toilets to save on disposal fees. As to the happy compromise, that's a work in progress. I don't have a definitive answer to that question. What I do have is a high view of self-determination and a sceptical perspective on government's ability or motive to "help" its citizenry micromanage their lives. It is clear that the Framers intended the federal government to have limited powers and involvement in the lives of its citizens, allowing them great flexibility to live those lives as they deemed fit. That flexibility is "freedom," of course, and it functions best, IMO, when regulated least. Does that mean I favour a lead smelter setting up shop next to an elementary school, since it's his property and he can do as he pleases? No, as I said, my view is a work in progress, and where individual rights and societal obligations meet is a line I've yet to mark. But the foundational principle on which this philosophical view is being built is that I, and not my government, am the authority in matters pertaining to my own life. |
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Leland Stone Inner circle 1204 Posts |
Quote:
Well, I don't think the social security system is a good idea. We began as a nation of ants, and have been coddled into a nation of grasshoppers...because we believe we can go to our wealthy uncle's home when the winter comes, and there be kept safe and warm and well-fed, despite our lifelong mismanagement and neglect. (See Aesop's "The Ant and the Grasshopper.") |
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Sorceress New user 34 Posts |
On 2008-09-18 16:15, EsnRedshirt wrote:
... remember that push to privatize social security, putting all that money into stocks, bonds, and mutual funds? Doesn't sound like such a hot investment right now, does it? ` ` ` PRIVATIZING Social Security IS a good thing. Right now the Government takes your money in social security and IT is NOT set aside FOR YOU - it is pooled and then OUR Politicians BORROW from this fund, that DOES NOT have your name on ANY part of it, and suddenly THERE is NOT enough money for the people to be covered in the future. ` ` The idea about privatizing it IS TO SET ASIDE THE MONEY they TAKE from you so YOU HAVE it and You Can watch it in your OWN account! ` ` ` AND where do you put it? Into Stocks and Bonds, JUST LIKE EVERYONE who is RICH in this Country Does! ` ` ` Take Theresa Heinz Kerry, WHERE do you think HER money is? IN Mostly UTILITY STOCKS and Surprise , Surprise, it is NOT GONE. ` ` ` When you invest in the Stock Market YOU Lose YOUR SHIRT if you jump IN and OUT. The Stock Market, for SMART People who grow fortunes and leave fortunes to future generations, is for LONG Term Investing. They choose "relatively RISK Free stocks" that they read about and invest in. And they Leave the money there for 25+ years, only selling usually if the stock has a sudden spike in value, like when houses started doubling and tripling in value. Then they sell and BUY when prices get LOW again, which is the EXPECTATION. OR they see values low and get all the money together they can, EVEN Borrowing it, and then they BUY as Much stock as they can while it is LOW and work on paying BACK the loans! This is how people who MAKE Money INVEST. ` ` What the BUSH Adnministration was attempting to do was GIVE YOUNG Americans THE Ability to TAKE control of the MONEY WE MAKE and that they take from us and Put in a POOL of other S funds and then OUR Lawmakers Borrow and SPEND it all away until it is GONE, Bush was trying to TAKE that money and PUT YOUR NAME on it in a PRIVATE account that you could INVEST over your working life and END UP with something. ` ` ` DO YOU have ANY idea what the SS Funds they TAKE away from us earn? I believe it isn't EVEN 3% Interest! MIGHT even earn 1%. It Taken away from us, and thrown away by our lawmakers and doesn't even earn as much as a lousy SAVINGS Account at a bank. HOW is this good? It doesn't work, it is lost and it doesn;t even GROW. ` ` ` THIS was a SPLENDID IDEA!! BUT our lawmakers PLAYED on YOUR IGNORANCE and FEAR and made Americans who Listen to politicians to get the facts BELIEVE it was too RISKY. ` ` ` Well, I am here to tell you It is ONLY too Risky for people who have NO clue what is going on. TO Know what is going on yopur have to WATCH the news EVERY single day,day in and day out until you understand what is happening. It isn't too risky for people who understand it. THIS is exactly how all the people with money that you admire MAKE IT! ` ` The Stock market is am EXCELLENT way to invest and end up WITH MONEY! ` ` ` Take a BIG LOOK around the WHOLE world. How many countries are FILLED with people at the MERCY of their Governments? And you choose to listen to Politicians for news on what is good or bad? More than HALF of our politicians CARE ONLY ABOUT STAYING in Power FOREVER. They do not care about doing what is BEST for you! Wake UP. Watch the NEWS until you understand it and THINK for yourself. It is NOT that complicated, it just takes NOT believing LIARS and understanding for yourself what is going on. YOU MUST educate yourself by watching the MOST unbiased news Every day and then when you learn about the stock market and learn about privatizing SS it is not the worst idea BUT the BEST idea EVER. Just think, they would have taken YOUR MONEY from you and PUT it in YOUR OWN Account that you could watch and invest - COMPARED to taking it and putting it into a POOL of other money taken THAT earns almost ZERO, WITHOUT your name on ANY of it and then it Borrowed from BY OUR lying Politicians until NOTHING is left and then They tell us SS is going BROKE and we have to do something and BLAME the party in Power as RUINING SS. Do you GET it now? |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Sorceress - what's the difference when "they" print money as they see fit?
IMHO it would be better to calm down - and ease off the caps key too. Rather than argue over what you posted I think it would be more productive to remind you that most here have not read much less understood Orwell's 1984. You can get animals to stand on two feet, to put on clothes and maybe even to type at the computer but it remains to be seen whether or not they can interpret and apply reasoned arguments. To be blunt, even the golden rule seems too much for most and was flatly rejected when posited as a hypothetical theory of justice a generation ago. Okay - will end this post on a joke - Q what's the difference between magical thinking and thinking like a magician? A the magician knows there's no such thing as magic. ;)
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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balducci Loyal user Canada 227 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-09-18 19:54, Sorceress wrote: Well, that might be how your public system works in the United States because, forgive me, your politicians and your citizens let your public system run amok. But just because that is how public social security worked out in the U.S. doesn't mean that a public system HAS to be that way. The Canada Pension Plan up here is a public system, "managed independently of the Canada Pension Plan by experienced investment professionals to help sustain the future pensions of 17 million Canadians". It is one of the most secure pension systems in the world. Well funded, well managed, it is a model for pension systems in much of the rest of the Western world. You can read about it here: http://www.cppib.ca/ http://www.canada.com/topics/news/story.......81cce18d Incidentally, it is doing marvelously because politicians of all stripes and from all parties came together to revamp it some years ago, in the 1990s. Canada faced many of the same problems the U.S. did, what with the aging population and all. Our politicians recognised the scope of the problem, and put aside differences in order to make this work. It would be nice if your politicians would / could do the same. I'll be quiet now.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
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