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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Shuffled not Stirred » » Tamariz' All of A Kind with Aronson stack? (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

The Amazing Noobini
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I'm a bit frustrated that after a year I have only found three memorized deck effects I really like. (And then a few slightly different versions of those as well as one or two effects I'm not quite ready for yet). So I keep going back to the many "what is your favorite so-and-so" threads and reading.

Several such sources recommend the Tamariz effect All of A Kind, aka Four of A Kind which is published among other places in Mnemonica. I have also seen this trick described here on the Café as "stack independent", with one or two exceptions.

Now then... I tried it for myself yesterday with my Aronson stack and the random card I drew by chance was the Jack of Diamonds. Already at my first attempt I was stumped due to the placements of the Jacks in the Aronson stack.

Today, after having slept on it I decide to try again and the random card I draw is the Jack of Hearts. Granted it could possibly have been worse if I had drawn the Jack of Spades, and I feel certain now that I would do so should I try the trick a third time.

So does anyone have any thoughts on the suitability of this trick for Aronson order? If there is an easy answer I cannot see it yet as I am in that confused phase I often find myself in when entering something new.
"Talk about melodrama... and being born in the wrong part of the world." (Raf Robert)
"You, my friend, have a lot to learn." (S. Youell)
"Nonsensical Raving of a lunatic mind..." (Larry)
Cohiba
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I used to use the AS, but since have decided upon another stack - which means my memory is a little dim on the AS.
However, there are very few times that you will run into a problem like the one you described. My guess is that most "random" stacks will run into a difficulty like this with at least one value.

Anyway, the trick works great 99% of the time. If one of the Jacks is picked, then you just have to improvise a little. The typical plot is that you are "sensing" for the mate of their card. So it's ok to take your time, and fish a little, especially after you show the second card and it doesn't match. I saw Mike Close do this years ago, and I really thought he had screwed up. The final reveal crushed me.

What you can do is flip over one of the adjacent cards, then cull one of the jacks deeper in the spread, load it, and flip over the new adjacent card to that one. It's ok to backtrack to get the last. It all adds to the "magician in trouble", and your concentration is not being faked!

Hopefully this helps - it's a killer trick!
The Amazing Noobini
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Thanks Cohiba! I guess you're right. For now at least I should probably just ignore the problem and try to get into the trick. Although I'm actually already starting to think that this one is too advanced for me.

I am a rather slow thinker and when I know one card and need to quickly find it's mates and their proper order, my brain seems to shut down. Especially when it's across the cyclic gap, so to speak. Too many things at once. Perhaps I will get used to it. For now it seems too difficult.

I suppose I could force a card as opposed to having one freely selected, thereby making sure that it is something I am prepared for. (ie using just the stack and not the fact that it's also memorized).

Thanks again!
"Talk about melodrama... and being born in the wrong part of the world." (Raf Robert)
"You, my friend, have a lot to learn." (S. Youell)
"Nonsensical Raving of a lunatic mind..." (Larry)
Cohiba
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Noob:

Don't think about needing to know where all the mates are right away - it's not necessary. Just start from wherever you are in the stack, going through the stack one card at a time (matching secret identities to actions/push-offs). You'll automatically realize it when you get to a mate. Even if you get off by a card (lose your spot), when you turn it face up, you'll realize it, and can self-correct. Again, you're attempting to do something pretty amazing by sense alone, so the presentation lends itself to changing your mind, etc. I've had it before where I turned the adjacent card face-up, only to find I was off by one. I just change my mind, and turn the next one up, saying you feel better about that one. The face-up cards become "markers" in your stack.

The trick is really quite forgiving. You can mess up, and fix it without anyone knowing. I understand the nerves when getting used to it, but even if you missed a card without realizing it, you could mentally go through the two that you've found, plus the one they selected, and determine what the missing suit is. That will trigger the exact location in the deck, so you can then get to it from one of your markers. Obviously this is not ideal, but you are presenting a magician in trouble, after all.

Hopefully this helps - don't give up!
The Amazing Noobini
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OK Cohiba, you have won me over. I will keep at it until I master this one! I think it seems so overwhelming now because I have never drilled a card's mates. I generally practice by estimation cutting to each card in order.

Everything you say makes perfect sense. Especially what you say about the nature of the effect lending itself to changing your mind. I didn't think of that. And I believe the location of the Jacks makes it possible to work around them when offering a selection as well. There are after all 31 cards to choose from between the first and the second one.

Another thing is that if they do get a Jack and you realize it after having squared and glimpsed, it is always possible to go into another more simple reveal instead and then follow that by doing the originally planned one.

One thing though... when you go through the deck like that, looking down at the backs, won't some spectators suspect that the deck is marked? Because this is how I believe most people think a marked deck works. This reflects back on other past discussions concerning unusual looking decks like I am using. (USPCCo cards look strange in Norway). Well, just a thought. The deck is examinable after all.

Thanks again for your advice!
"Talk about melodrama... and being born in the wrong part of the world." (Raf Robert)
"You, my friend, have a lot to learn." (S. Youell)
"Nonsensical Raving of a lunatic mind..." (Larry)
Cohiba
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Good point about it appearing like the cards are marked. I've never been called on it, but it could happen. I've always made it appear almost like I'm feeling the cards, weighing them over in my mind, as opposed to staring at them too intently. Going by feel, you actually could look up or shut your eyes while going through the sections of cards that don't contain a mate. There is nothing to see, after all, so staring too much at the cards doesn't help you anyway.
Dennis Loomis
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To Nooblini,

The Tamariz All of a Kind is certainly a great trick, but it's really based on Vernon's Matching the Cards from Inner Secrets. Magicians tend to think that the Tamariz version is better, because the initial card is freely chosen. But the force that Vernon used is so good that I'm sure that lay people will be convinced that was a free choice, too. The Tamariz trick requires a full deck stack... he uses Mnemonica and you want to do it with the Aronson Stack. The Vernon effect has a set up, but it's just eight cards. So, consider, if you want to do this effect, using the Vernon version. It does not require any mem deck mastery and not much thinking during the performance.

If you do want to do the Tamariz version with the Aronson stack, you are essentially getting into jazzing with the Aronson Stack. Each time you do the effect you will be trodding different paths and the better your mastery of Aronson, the easier it will be to do. I would suggest this alternative. You might use a good force to force one of the aces. Remember, in Aronson, all of the aces are in the top 22 cards of the deck. So, if you force the Ace of Spades, and the deck is cut at the place from which they remove the Ace of Spades and pocket it, the next ace (Clubs) is five down. (Ace of Spades was at position 6, and Ace of Clubs is at position 11) Seven cards after that is the Ace of Diamonds, and just 4 cards after that is the Ace of Hearts. It will be easy to sight count to where you need to be and reverse the cards adjacent to the aces in preparation for the Larreverses to follow.

This procedure also eliminates the troublesome Jacks which are so very close together in Aronson. (Well, three of them are close.) The same can be said about the 4's and 10's.

Dennis Loomis
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<BR>http://www.loomismagic.com
edh
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Dennis, I believe what you mean't to say is the AC is at position 10, not eleven. So the AC is only four down.

Please correct me if I'm missing something.

Good thinking. I enjoy these type of posts. Thanks for contributing Dennis.

P.S. Please don't tell me I have been putting the AC in the WRONG order. Smile
Magic is a vanishing art.
The Amazing Noobini
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Haha, no edh, you have your AoC in the right place. I missed that detail or I would have been nervous too! When I learned the stack I wrote the order onto the backs of an old deck and it remains my only source to the correct stack. Although I did double check it when I wrote it down, for a long time I was nervous whenever I read a memdeck effect to suddenly see that I had gotten one wrong.

Dennis, your input on this is greatly appreciated! I was discussing magic yesterday with a non magician friend of mine and he brought up the subject of what he called "anti-magicians" who seem to get a trick wrong and everything appeared chaotic. Then of course, they would find the cards anyway. My friend thinks of magicians who do this as belonging to some higher cast, a small exclusive group of people who have gone beyond systems and self working tricks. I wish I could have done All of A Kind but it is still too early for me of course.

I like your comparison with jazzing with the stack. I have never drilled the relationships or distance between the same numbered cards, so for me now it will hopefully be the final missing step to a complete familiarity with the stack. For this practice, All of A Kind is ideal.

When this is done I can go on to that mythical and exclusive group of magicians that my friend mentions. Smile
"Talk about melodrama... and being born in the wrong part of the world." (Raf Robert)
"You, my friend, have a lot to learn." (S. Youell)
"Nonsensical Raving of a lunatic mind..." (Larry)
Dennis Loomis
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Yup, you guys are right. I was typing fast and not thinking clearly, I guess. Of course the AC is number 10 in Aronson.

Dennis "Boy is my face red" Loomis
Itinerant Montebank
<BR>http://www.loomismagic.com
double_lift
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BTW, there's a lovely version of that effect by Kostya Kimlat that you can do with a shuffled deck in use. No need to memorize anything. Check it out.
"There's a world of difference between the spectators not knowing how something is done and them knowing that it can't be done."
(Simon Aronson)
Turk
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Quote:
On 2008-10-21 08:21, double_lift wrote:
BTW, there's a lovely version of that effect by Kostya Kimlat that you can do with a shuffled deck in use. No need to memorize anything. Check it out.


Double_lift,

What is the name of the Kostya Kimlat effect and where can it be found?

Thanks for the info.

Mike

P.S. Is this effect a "knuckle-buster"?
Magic is a vanishing Art.

This must not be Kansas anymore, Toto.

Eschew obfuscation.
churken
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Mike,

I believe that the Kostya Kimlat effect in question is called 4 For Following and can be found on the Roadrunner Cull dvd. (I often rename effects when I have worked out new presentations for them, so I could be a little off in the title, but I don't think I am. Someone will correct me soon if I am.) It is definately on that dvd.

As far as it being knuckle busting - yes. It will take practice. That said, the required actions are well covered by patter and the fact that the audience has no idea what to expect. So with a little practice, you should be able to perform this within a relatively short period of time.

Also, keep in mind that a DL was knuckle busting when you were first learning it. Don't let difficulty stop you.

The big difference between this effect and Tamariz All of a Kind is that the Tamariz version is without ever lookiing at the faces of the cards. In Kostya's version you must run through the cards face up. Is this a bad thing? It depends upon you as a performer. There are cons to both methods. You've heard the con in Kostya's method. In Tamariz's effect you may appear to be counting the cards if you don't have a good presentation. Tamariz's version is a magician in trouble type presentation, so you have that built in comedy. Kostya's can be built up in a number of ways because the audience has no idea what you are about to do and all the work is over early in the effect.

I am of the opinion that both effects are very good. I think either of them will fry the audience if presented properly. I have used both methods quite often in my walk around work and both get great reactions. (At least they do for me).

I hope this helps,

Paul
double_lift
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Hi Mike, the effect is called "Four The Easy Way" and it's on his Lecture DVD from International Magic Studio. It only uses two techniques neither of which is specially difficult.

Check it out, you'll like it: Four The Easy Way
"There's a world of difference between the spectators not knowing how something is done and them knowing that it can't be done."
(Simon Aronson)
Turk
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Thanks for the info, churken and double_lift. Much appreciated.

Mike
Magic is a vanishing Art.

This must not be Kansas anymore, Toto.

Eschew obfuscation.
SpringBizkit
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Hey guys, umm.. you know.. you don't need a stacked deck to get the same effect as Tamirez's all of a kind.
I performed his All of a kind earlier today after learning the stack, and I got them really really good.
now the thing is, I continued on and shuffled and then they shuffled, breaking the stack. I didn't mind as I didn't know any other tricks with the stack.
Then few more friends came by and the previous ones had to leave (this is at my student hostel, friends everywhere)
and so if you just setup, lets say, the 4 Eights into positions 1, 12, 20, and 30, you can easily force the top one, then as you "feel" for the cards you're secretly counting and just go 1 card past where you know the card is. I was thinking of how to do All of a kind this way, and it works out just fine as long as the force is believable.
give it a try.
EdgarWilde
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Even Mnemonica has an "awkward" card for the effect: the Queen.
Although not as awkward as the Jacks in the Aronson Stack, it does become a bit uncomfortable when any Queen is selected.
balic2003
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@SpringBizkit:
its nice but you have to force a card.
with the mem-deck you don´t have.

@EdgarWilde:
yes, you are right with the queens.
but if you have big hands then you can cover the reversed card and there is not much to see.
also the spectator thinks the trick is over and you screwed up.
so they will not pay so much attention.
EdgarWilde
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@balic2003:
yeah, the specs interest is not at it's height, though I tend to handle la reverse quite openly/invisibly and look too cramped trying to cover something up in case of the Queens - just glad it doesn't happen too often.
though I could try and polish my Classic Force with this trick - I'll have 48 cards leeway Smile
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