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Mb217
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Hey Ross I know you're a cool guy and we just have differing opinions on this and that's OK. But I tellya my friend, I find it hard to believe that if a guy, any guy, reached into your wife or young daughter's bra and pulled out a coin that you would find that all that amusing or appropriate, no matter the venue or "intent." I don't see you finding good space for it in your mind, no more than I find it acceptable if he had told you to open his zipper and pull out the coin. I guess in that instance it then could still be about an innocent intent as you speak of but I just can't see you seeing it quite that way as you saw the other thing. And you know there's no difference at all between murder and manslaughter anywhere the world to the dead person or for the most part to his family -- matter of perspective my friend. Smile While I can clearly see what you're getting at here in how people's minds run wild on such things, I do think people's mind's not being so gaurded is how the whole pedophile priest thing got out of control - Thank God, so to speak.

Personally, I think people should be suspect of such behavior, innocent or not. I think the element of "appropriateness" is also something to be greatly considered as to such performance. I once saw a performance by a beautiful young lady doing her presentation of the Vanishing Handkerchief. It was quite creative and actually very well done but it was also very sexual and quite suggestive, even seductively arrousing but it most certainly was magical and entertaining and the crowd loved it (Personally I had never seen this old classic done quite this way - obviously her own handling). I don't know how tasteful it was to women in the audience and in that it perhaps skated the line on appropriateness but everyone there was an adult and I guess fair game for what they were about to witness. This is an extreme but it is one that I think moreso than not was OK. This thing with children is something else entirely as often times kids are not as aware and can be taken advantage of much more easily. Adults know enough to repel such actions, even in jest.

Finally, I still say make it personal and if such action is still Ok, then to each his own. But I wouldn't think you would find too many parents that would be OK with this as I'm pretty sure the same gut feeling most here felt would trigger the same sort of responses...There are reasons for such gut feelings, they are usually warnings of some sort, whether you pick up on them or not.
*Check out my latest: MBs Mini Lecture on Coin Magic, The MB Tanspo PLUS, MB's Morgan, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at gumroad.com/mb217magic Smile


"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb Smile
MickeyPainless
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For those who seem to think this is a non issue lemme ask this: If the spectator were a young girl would it be just as ok in your books? Not the same analogy as MB's with it being you wife or daughter, just any young girl and the magician unzips her pants and slips his fingers in and pulls out a coin! Would you find it acceptable if it were a female magician unzipping a little boys pants?

I have run through just about every possible scenario and I can find NOTHING acceptable or justifiable about something like this in ANY way, shape or form! I find this UNACCEPTABLE on absolutely every possible level for ANYONE! I really try not to judge people by their beliefs or opinions but I have to say that I am completely repulsed by the thought that anyone can find anything at all acceptable or forgivable about this!

I would normally sign off with a "Just my 2 cents" or "Just my opinion" however my "opinions" are subject to change based on new information and there is absolutely nothing that could change my convictions in this area!

Mick
Kihei
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There are several conflicts in the logical arguments seeing nothing wrong here. If nothing is wrong, why would you not do the trick? No harm, no foul? Don't fool yourself into thinking this is ok. If you truly believe this is ok, you are not far from a jail cell. Seems like the media exposure would kill any career hopes a magician might have.
B_Bishop
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I applaud everyone's passion for child protection...

But you guys have gone round the bend. Child molestation? Thai kiddie porn? I'm not far from a jail cell?! To suggest that because we disagree with you guys we spend our time riding around in vans with tinted windows offering candy is about the dumbest thing I've ever read on any forum EVER.

No one is saying that they condone the acts you guys are talking about, we're just saying we didn't see these acts in the video.

Continue on with your pitchforks and torches, try not to let reason get in your way.

Brett
Dannydoyle
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Yea I think what I said and it may have been deleted was simply that you are teaching kids that it is ok to reach into the pants and such, provided someone is doing magic and someone else is laughing.

Now what I am saying is you have then perfectly trained a child so that when someone comes along and DOES want to do something like that, they are all ready vulnurable.

How clear is that?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Mb217
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Hey Bish, interesting turn around of concern for folly. I used to have a good friend that if you said blue, he'd say red. Smile Like I said earlier, it takes all kinds. But to be honest you sound like the folks that saw absolutely nothing wrong with the priests having close relationships with altar boys, that grew into other things just as innocently.

Since we do not know the actual intention of the magician in these vids, I agree that it's hard to pin this on him. But I believe also whether it is intentional or not that a thing can most certainly be inappropriate. Hey who knows, perhaps Michael Jackson didn't really mean anything by having those kids share his bed. He sorta thinks like you about this, "What's the problem here?" To be honest such situations always have their supporters, defenders, etc.

But I agree with you on one point, and I thought about it as I was posting earlier about this, that perhaps the folks that feel strongly that this is wrong here would begin to look like a mob and their sentiment would be turned into some sort of witch hunt of sorts. You certainly painted it that way. But I guess that's about how life is, this side and that. But I think if you could speak with this magi, you'd tell him that it would probably be a good idea to pull the coin from the kid's ear instead, to avoid such "misunderstanding" and controversy over something possibly so innocent. Real bad thing to be hung for something and not be guilty but be very dead just the same. Smile That's about how life is also. With that I respect your opinion on this as I respect everyone's opinion.
*Check out my latest: MBs Mini Lecture on Coin Magic, The MB Tanspo PLUS, MB's Morgan, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at gumroad.com/mb217magic Smile


"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb Smile
B_Bishop
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MB217-

That is easily the best argument made so far. Thank you for your rationale. My basic argument was that it is difficult to see a 30 sec clip and paste someone a pedophile, considering the seriousness of such a claim.

Do I think it's fishy? Sure. But then so are a lot of other clips that many here wouldn't bat an eye at. Diatribe over, back to having fun with magic.

Brett
And yes I am a "sky is blue, sky is red" type of person.
Ross W
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Quote:
On 2008-09-24 13:44, Dannydoyle wrote:

Now what I am saying is you have then perfectly trained a child so that when someone comes along and DOES want to do something like that, they are all ready vulnurable.

How clear is that?


Clear as a bell, Danny. I just don't think it is AT ALL likely. I simply do not think it probable that if that young lad were unfortunate enough to encounter a child-molester he would think, "Well this is okay because that magician pulled a coin out of my fly." I claim no great expertise in this area but I suppose that most activity of this kind is far subtler and more manipulative than we can imagine and bears little relation to what this magician was doing. And no, I don't even think it's "the thin end of the wedge". It's a different wedge altogether.

The fact that I wouldn't perform it myself is immaterial. Not because it's wrong, but because it is *perceived* as being wrong and I wouldn't want to upset people, or to have them think I was a perv.

It's an important distinction. Marion raises the subject of Michael Jackson. Now whether Jacko is or is not a nonce I have no idea (but no, I wouldn't let my kids go and stay with him). But his case raised some interesting questions, in particular, "can a grown man ever sleep innocently in the same bed as a boy?" Jackson, in his defence, regretted that this was no longer possible, and I agree with him.

It's entirely sad that there is a presumption of guilt, of perversion, in so many adult-child interactions. Elsewhere on the Café there are frequent discussions about this (check out the Little Darlings section). Some magicians say they will never touch a child; our local mall's Santa won't take my kids on his knee; some teachers say they are unable to give children a cuddle, and so on.

This "constant vigilance" hasn't reduced the incidence of child molestation. (It remains, thankfully, a rare phenomenon). But what is HAS reduced (to judge from this thread) is many people's ability to distinguish between essentially innocent fun and hard-core perversion.

Crying "pervert" to everyone who transgresses some arbitrary boundary of taste, regardless of background and culture, strikes me as very regressive.
Author.
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silverking
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Quote:
On 2008-09-24 18:15, ross welford wrote:
"can a grown man ever sleep innocently in the same bed as a boy?" Jackson, in his defence, regretted that this was no longer possible, and I agree with him.


'Nuff said.
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On 2008-09-24 18:15, ross welford wrote:
Quote:
On 2008-09-24 13:44, Dannydoyle wrote:

Now what I am saying is you have then perfectly trained a child so that when someone comes along and DOES want to do something like that, they are all ready vulnurable.

How clear is that?


Clear as a bell, Danny. I just don't think it is AT ALL likely. I simply do not think it probable that if that young lad were unfortunate enough to encounter a child-molester he would think, "Well this is okay because that magician pulled a coin out of my fly." I claim no great expertise in this area but I suppose that most activity of this kind is far subtler and more manipulative than we can imagine and bears little relation to what this magician was doing. And no, I don't even think it's "the thin end of the wedge". It's a different wedge altogether.

The fact that I wouldn't perform it myself is immaterial. Not because it's wrong, but because it is *perceived* as being wrong and I wouldn't want to upset people, or to have them think I was a perv.

It's an important distinction. Marion raises the subject of Michael Jackson. Now whether Jacko is or is not a nonce I have no idea (but no, I wouldn't let my kids go and stay with him). But his case raised some interesting questions, in particular, "can a grown man ever sleep innocently in the same bed as a boy?" Jackson, in his defence, regretted that this was no longer possible, and I agree with him.

It's entirely sad that there is a presumption of guilt, of perversion, in so many adult-child interactions. Elsewhere on the Café there are frequent discussions about this (check out the Little Darlings section). Some magicians say they will never touch a child; our local mall's Santa won't take my kids on his knee; some teachers say they are unable to give children a cuddle, and so on.

This "constant vigilance" hasn't reduced the incidence of child molestation. (It remains, thankfully, a rare phenomenon). But what is HAS reduced (to judge from this thread) is many people's ability to distinguish between essentially innocent fun and hard-core perversion.

Crying "pervert" to everyone who transgresses some arbitrary boundary of taste, regardless of background and culture, strikes me as very regressive.


Obviously it was not clear enough. You show yourself painfully ignorant of how children and impressions are formed so let me help you a bit.

2 things happen when children percieve something.

1) YOU TRY to get a point across.
2) THEY PERCIEVE something.

Now 1 does not always match up with 2.

What you are telling a child by letting an adult in a position of power reach into their pants is that it is ok for an adult in a position of power to reach into their pants. You can not expect a child, A CHILD mind you, to make the fine distinctions between good touching and bad touching when they are so darn young. It teaches them that in SOME cases it is ok to do this. As such it leaves them open to maybe making the wrong choice. You want them to have NO CHOICE, IT IS WRONG. This is the only way to properly defend children until ultimatly they are able to make informed decisions and defend themselfs.

The "intent" behind STRANGER DANGER was wonderful. But some tended to believe that strangers were THE danger, and people close to them were not. In reality those molested at young ages are FAR more likely to be molested by someone they know NOT A STRANGER. BUT since the STRANGER is the DANGER, guess what many PERCIEVED?

It is not what YOU mean as an adult, it is about what is taught to the child. You are woefully ignorant of this concept. Don't feel bad, many are, but please do not continue to try to defend the position.

Oh and NO a man can not "innocently" sleep in a bed with a child that is not his. (See above)
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
MickeyPainless
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Well said Danny!
B_Bishop
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I know I should let sleeping dogs lie, (so long as the dog is my dog and not by brother's), but I couldn't resist getting the female perspective on this so I showed it to my wife. Man did her reaction surprise me...

She agreed with me. While she found it creepy, she said that had she seen the performance live the only thing she would have been curious about was whether the child knew the grown up. Also, in a fit of "Now I remember why I love this woman", moments later she uttered this phrase,

"What I found really appalling was how horrible his false transfer was."

Now I'm done.

Brett
Mb217
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See Bish, there's somebody for everybody...Smile
*Check out my latest: MBs Mini Lecture on Coin Magic, The MB Tanspo PLUS, MB's Morgan, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at gumroad.com/mb217magic Smile


"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb Smile
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On 2008-09-25 05:13, B_Bishop wrote:
I know I should let sleeping dogs lie, (so long as the dog is my dog and not by brother's), but I couldn't resist getting the female perspective on this so I showed it to my wife. Man did her reaction surprise me...

She agreed with me. While she found it creepy, she said that had she seen the performance live the only thing she would have been curious about was whether the child knew the grown up. Also, in a fit of "Now I remember why I love this woman", moments later she uttered this phrase,

"What I found really appalling was how horrible his false transfer was."

Now I'm done.

Brett


MY GOD THAT IS WORSE!!!!!! Don't you read what others post? THE HUGE MAJORITY OF MOLESTATIONS TAKE PLACE FROM A PERSON THE CHILD KNOWS. Now you want to teach a kid it is OK to unzip the pants provided they KNOW THE ADULT?

OH MY GOD!!!!!!!!!!!! You are creating potential victims!Holy crap I am glad you are done.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Mark005
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Quote:
On 2008-09-21 11:40, rannie wrote:
The Boss would have knocked him out cold! I actually know of a "magician????" who loves to pull d lites from the same places. If I post a vid of him here.... he would melt! Problem is...I don't think he is a member here. The irritating thing is that...people,, at least the bigger lot seem to laugh. Wassup with that?

These people should be apprehended... seriously! Banned etc...! I have kids and this really makes me .....aaaaaarrrrgh!


I know someone so stupid he did the d'light thing out of a girls butt at a public school...

...school called the cops!

This is nothing to mess with these days.
B_Bishop
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Daniel, reread the post, unstick your CAPS key, and stop acting like an infant.
First of all I said that that is what my wife asked. Secondly, how can you make the point one minute that it is OK to sleep in a bed with your own child and no one elses and then the next freak out over this nonsense.

It was a 30 second clip of a magician using bad judgment. It makes me wonder if your irrational rage in this case has anything to do with personal experience. If that is the case, I am more sorry than you can possibly imagine. I however believe in the general goodness of people and saw none of this "evil" that so many here seem to have witnessed.

Will not be baited again, (hopefully)

Brett
JTW
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First, To Danny, the kid isn't an infant. At that age he should know the difference between good and bad touches. If a magician pulls a coin out of his fly and this confuses him as to what is or isn't considered appropriate, he has bigger issues.

Second this obviously isn't filmed in the US. Why is it that we assume to know how everyone else on this planet should or should not behave. Who made us the morality police of the entire world? No one else (as has been pointed out) in the video seemed to have an issue with it.

An example...
In Ethiopia there are tibes that require a young man of about 12 or 13 to be naked, have cow dung wiped all over their bodies, have the female members of the tribe beat with whips so severely that it leaves horrible gaping wounds and then make him run across the backs of cows while their entire village watches...just to become a man. BTW wife beating is an acceptable practice among this tribe.

Here in the US that would be looked at as abuse, the boy would be taken away from his home and the entire village arrested. There if he fails to complete the ritual he is ostracized.

I'm not condoning the action of this entertainer (after all I live in the US and I have a very fragile sense of morals) but I refuse to judge another person based on culture using my possibly flawed presuppositions of right and wrong.

Those of you that would should step back and try to think clearly.

Oh and remember this? "Judge not, lest ye be judged". It's really good advice and I'm an atheist...
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On 2008-09-25 11:57, JTW wrote:
First, To Danny, the kid isn't an infant. At that age he should know the difference between good and bad touches. If a magician pulls a coin out of his fly and this confuses him as to what is or isn't considered appropriate, he has bigger issues.



What could this possibly mean? You are going to now blame a child at this age for not knowing right from wrong? Oh man please clarify.

Bish, yea stop posting it will look far better for you.

Hey here is an idea. ANYONE who thinks this is no big deal, go talk to some street cops who work juvi crimes for just 10 minutes. Tell me what ya think when ya get back.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On 2008-09-25 10:33, B_Bishop wrote:
Daniel, reread the post, unstick your CAPS key, and stop acting like an infant.
First of all I said that that is what my wife asked. Secondly, how can you make the point one minute that it is OK to sleep in a bed with your own child and no one elses and then the next freak out over this nonsense.

Brett


Yes. Let's clarify shall we? Is it odd to sleep in a bed with your own child? Often they have nightmares and such. So no not too strange. Is it odd for a complete stranger to unzip a childs pants and reach in? Yes. Now you think this is the same thing somehow?
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
JTW
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Danny, I'll try...the kid in the vid looks to be about 12 or 13 to me...I could be totally off base as I don't have kids, people with children seem to be able to distinguish ages much better.

I'll quote from your post that prompted my response.

Quote:
You can not expect a child, A CHILD mind you, to make the fine distinctions between good touching and bad touching when they are so darn young.


At what age do you propose that they can make the distinction between right and wrong? I have read a lot of literature regarding this subject (took some psych courses back in the day) and I'm interested in your opinion.

I think I was pretty young when I was told where someone could touch me and where they shouldn't.

I'm not blaming anyone for anything in this thread other than being quick to judge.

et al,

I'll reiterate. We should not judge this man based on his ACTIONS. We may not understand what is considered "normal" or "acceptable" in his culture. To us it may seem reprehensible, to him it may be ok. Other cultures have what we in the west would consider barbaric practices, things that in our society would get one arrested. We cannot allow ourselves to judge them based on our perception of right and wrong. Morality is a product of society, philosophy, religion, and individual conscience. We need to stop putting our world views on others.

Perhaps contacting the man and ask him why it is ok to do that in his country would be more than helpful.

Just a thought...
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