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RJE Inner circle 1848 Posts 
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Skip,
To address your question. Irreparable? No, Eric does not have that type of impact. Few, if any have that type of impact. However, he has done wrong and I quote from the Bylaws and Constitution of the International Brotherhood of Magicians: Article II MISSION AND OBJECTIVES 9. To oppose exposures of the principles of the Art of Magic except in books on magic and magazines devoted to such art for the exclusive use of magicians and devotees of said art; to oppose the exposing of magical tricks or illusions to the public in any type of performance by whatever means employed; I think you would have to agree that YouTube does not fit the definition of "books on magic and magazines devoted to such art for the exclusive use of magicians and devotees of said art." Indeed, Eric Paul has clearly violated the Bylaws and Constitution of the IBM. |
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Skip Way Inner circle 3771 Posts
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Quote:
On 2008-09-24 15:54, RJE wrote: In that case and under those terms, I hereby accuse Mark Wilson, Walter Gibson, Harlan Tarbell, Criss Angel, David Blaine, Marshall Brodein, Harry Blackstone Sr, Harry Blackstone Jr, the owners of Ellusionist and a host of others of violating the terms and tenets of that treasured document. For every one of those listed has submitted works revealing, in detail, the secrets of magic to the open and general public. I accuse every magic dealer who has ever sold a magic effect, book, DVD, video or magazine to a non-magician. I accuse every magician who has ever produced, sold or given away a magic book, DVD, promotional How-To flyer, magic kit or effect to a non-magician. I further accuse everyone who has ever taught a magic trick or revealed a magic effect's secret to a non-magician through error, incompetence or lack of sufficient practice. Will those without guilt please step forward and cast their stones? Hmmm...no stones? The next IBM Ring meeting is going to be a bit lonely. 
How you leave others feeling after an Experience with you becomes your Trademark.
Magic Youth Raleigh - RaleighMagicClub.org |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21263 Posts
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Skip, that may make others wrong, but it does not in any way provide an adequate defense.
"Your honer my client IS indeed guilty, but here is a list of even more prominant guilty people, so how can we expect any better from him?" Your defense seems predicated on the fact that others have done it. That alone is not a good defense. He needs to be not guilty on his own merits, not on the fact that "what the heck everyone is doing it". I am not saying he is guilty of anything, but rather the idea that others have done it is no sort of defense.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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RJE Inner circle 1848 Posts
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Skip,
Perhaps valid, perhaps not. There may or may not be an arguement about what others have done. However, this thread is about what Eric Paul has done. In that, the evidence speaks for itself. He has chosen, for whatever reason, to reveal the secrets of specific magic tricks in an open and public media. This, according to the ethics of most magicians, including the IBM, clearly shows that what he has done is wrong. As to your other accusations, you will need to start another thread where the concept of right and wrong on where magic secrets can be disclosed might be discussed. They are only a distraction from this particular discussion and have no bearing on Mr. Paul's actions. |
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Donald Dunphy Inner circle Victoria, BC, Canada 7565 Posts
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I asked this question earlier: "At what point does teaching become exposure?"
Is the only response the one that Rob gave?: "Selling a book to a student of magic is not wrong. That student has made an investment of time and money. All that is missing in this case and that is what makes what Eric has done, wrong." How much time, and how much money, on behalf of the student, change the situation from "exposure" to "teaching"? - Donald
Donald Dunphy is a Victoria Magician, British Columbia, Canada.
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Skip Way Inner circle 3771 Posts
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Quote:
On 2008-09-24 16:12, Dannydoyle wrote: No defense is needed, Danny. There is an old Italian proverb: Better no law than one that is not enforced. Who can fairly judge and condemn another of breaking a law when the judge, the prosecutor, the defense attorney and the jury have all broken the same law? Okay, we didn't post our secrets on YouTube - but there are very few of us who haven't revealed some form of "Public Accessible" secret to a non-magician at multiple points in our careers. Why condemn one while overlooking the flagrant abuses of everyone else? Simply because one is more visible?
Regardless of that,though - and this is why no defense is needed - what did he do? No one can point out one single explained effect that he posted that is proprietary or not readily available to the public from other sources. No crime - no defense. Still looking for stones here!
Posted: Sep 24, 2008 4:37pm ------------------------------ Quote:
On 2008-09-24 16:14, RJE wrote: I agree again, RJ...this thread is about what Eric Paul has done. From what I've seen, he's done nothing more than what countless known and unknown wand waving wonders out there have done in many ways and at many times. I am still waiting for someone - anyone - to present one specific example out of all Eric's videos of just One effect that is proprietary and not publicly available from common sources. Just one! Do that one thing and I unconditionally lose this discussion hands down. Until that moment, Eric has done nothing worse than anyone else and simply does not deserve to be singled out.
How you leave others feeling after an Experience with you becomes your Trademark.
Magic Youth Raleigh - RaleighMagicClub.org |
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Ken Northridge Inner circle Atlantic City, NJ 2394 Posts
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On 2008-09-24 16:37, Skip Way wrote: The Masked Magician was not the first to expose magician's secrets, but what made it so much worse is that they were was exposed on a TV show in which millions were watching. I'm not comparing Eric Paul to the Masked Magician, I'm trying to illustrate why "teaching" on YouTube is different and much more visible than books, magazines, magic dollars, Ed Harris sheets, etc. That's why Eric Paul has been singled out. I don't think Eric is doing anything wrong, I just WISH these secrets were reserved for the TRULY interested. The world has changed, I get it. It’s still my wish though, and I’m not alone.
"Love is the real magic." -Doug Henning
www.KenNorthridge.com |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27300 Posts
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I'd be more interested in reading a little about what Eric is working to accomplish and how magic methods fit into that process.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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RJE Inner circle 1848 Posts
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Skip,
The effects do not have to be proprietary and they are definitely available from other sources. That is not in dispute. Eric is being singled out here because the thread specifically says that he, as a person of some reknown in the magical arts, has broken a code of ethics by posting videos that expose magic on YouTube. Although noble in your defence of Mr. Paul's actions, whether or not others have been guilty of this, is not the discussion here, so your challenge is not valid. Should you wish to start a different thread where it is open for discussion on where the boundaries are in the modern world in regard to the explanation of magic secrets and then use examples and precendence from both distant and recent times, I would be happy to join that discussion in a continuingly courteous and respectful tone, as I suspect would many others. |
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JoshuaMichael New user 37 Posts
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These tricks are not HIS to give away.
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RJE Inner circle 1848 Posts
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Hello Donald,
Yes, some students of magic undoubtly use the internet and YouTube as a source of learning and inspiration. But, the exposing of magic on YouTube clearly goes beyond serving that purpose. Again, Mr. Paul, regardless of personal or professional feelings has done wrong. If however, the good people here at the Café wish to have meaningful dialogue on proposed changes to the code of ethics in modern times, then a different thread should be created for that purpose. In the meantime, under the existing code of conduct set out by the IBM, Eric did something he should not have done. |
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mikemiller New user 18 Posts
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As President Elect of the Society of American Magicians gratuitous EXSPOSER of magic effects and principles are against our Code of Ethics. I personally find that exposure of magic secrets on YouTube fits that criteria . To me this is just as bad as the Mask Magician.
What ever happen to having kids reading magic books, isn't reading an important part of learning? |
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Donald Dunphy Inner circle Victoria, BC, Canada 7565 Posts
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I see Eric's intent as that of teaching, rather than exposure. The videos were meant for his online kids magic club, http://www.youcanlearnmagic.com . As someone pointed out earlier, there is a mix of performance videos, and teaching videos.
I get the impression that people are saying that it is exposure, because he is using a mass media of YouTube for his video hosting. For me, I wouldn't run things the way that Eric did. For some reason, I see DVD, print books, and even print newsletters (even for free clubs for kids) as OK. I don't necessarily believe that a person has to pay for me to teach them a trick. And by that I mean, I'm happy to give out teach a trick leaflets, activity pages, etc. as a form of promotion & to foster interest in performing magic. Sometimes I wonder if it is because I'm old fashioned that I see the idea of online video as being a poor idea. If I was to run an online magic club, which included videos, I'd make people sign up to see the videos, to have access to the secrets. This would mean I couldn't host the videos on YouTube, Google Video, etc. This would create a few more hoops for the person to jump through, to get access to the info. However, just because I would do things that way myself, doesn't mean I can impose my beliefs onto him. I see teaching tricks via video on YouTube as more of a grey area, than a black area (using the B&W analogy). - Donald
Donald Dunphy is a Victoria Magician, British Columbia, Canada.
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mikemiller New user 18 Posts
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What ever happen to having kids reading magic books, isn't reading an important part of learning? By purchasing a magic book or a DVD, or going to a class, attending a magic meeting such as an SAM or IBM ring, or even seeking out an instructional book at the public library, a person is demonstrating a genuine interest in the art of magic. That is a completely different scenario than a lay person being lured to a YouTube video just to see a trick revealed.
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27300 Posts
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First and foremost I'd rather we address the issue than speak ill of those who are working under the real life rules as they understand them. IMHO after we have a consensus about the protocol for passing along magic data we can then have a better dialog with those who wish to offer magic to the public.
Quote:
On 2008-09-24 17:34, mikemiller wrote: They can read the text on the screen, type in the words they want and download any content on the Internet. They can use the Internet rather well - context relevant learning in this case. So if Google can get them a pointer to it - it's exposed. Mike - do you distinguish making data available at a click from making data available for three clicks and a borrowed Paypal account? Posted: Sep 24, 2008 5:55pm ------------------------------ Quote:
On 2008-09-24 17:43, Donald Dunphy wrote:... You mean this is about Eric not marking his videos "by invitation only" and using his managing his invitations to his subscribers?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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mikemiller New user 18 Posts
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I see your point, but I'm old school. Whether it's one click or three clicks and PayPal, they're still doing their own research.
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27300 Posts
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I'm with you about the protocol requiring a knowing and willful act - something more than "click here to learn the secrets" and "click here to download a huge magic library".
I'm old school too - direct personal responsibility for the data one uses and propagates. And still concerned that to this generation - it's pretty much an open book of shortcuts and URL links - no research or reading skills required.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Skip Way Inner circle 3771 Posts
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Quote:
On 2008-09-24 17:48, Jonathan Townsend wrote: As usual, extremely sensible. Like Ken, Danny and countless others, I dearly wish that we could go back to the passing of magic knowledge and skills from master to novice and peer to peer. We can't. It's a new age with new challenges and unlimited avenues. All we can do is confront them and conform them to work in our favor. This is going to take forward-thinking people capable of looking beyond "the way it used to be." It's that simple. As RJ wisely stated, that's a matter for another thread. As to Eric - He did nothing wrong. For those who believe he did (and I absolutely respect your opinions and your right to them) there is really nothing you can do short of slandering his reputation. Just be sure that you're firmly planted on that glorious path of righteousness before taking that first step. Let's just agree to disagree and move on. We've done beat this mule into Big Macs. It's been fun, though! Posted: Sep 24, 2008 6:18pm ------------------------------ Quote:
On 2008-09-24 17:59, mikemiller wrote: Wonderful! I love the old school approach, too! The problem is, the up and coming generations don't necessarily understand or want old school. Like it or not, they are the future of our art and our associations. They represent a new world with new possibilities. I would expect the leaders of the top magic associations to recognize and address this. Hiding our heads in the sand and sticking to outdated principals will only lead to the extinction of those organizations. Maybe Eric's YouTube approach isn't the best solution. But, at least he's moving forward and taking risks with an eye on the future. He's looking for and trying new ways to reach new markets in a hyper-connected world. I applaud that and will support it completely. I have a strong conservative nature, but we can't keep doing business in the same old way in a world moving at light speed.
How you leave others feeling after an Experience with you becomes your Trademark.
Magic Youth Raleigh - RaleighMagicClub.org |
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Donald Dunphy Inner circle Victoria, BC, Canada 7565 Posts
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Quote:
On 2008-09-24 15:54, RJE wrote: While YouTube does not fit the category of books and magazines per se, videos, DVDs, and pamphlets (leaflets) aren't on this list, either. Neither is the internet, and it's myraid of ways to publish info (website, ebooks, online video, etc.) BTW, did IBM have a policy about those people who teach tricks to kids on cereal boxes (magic premiums), and in kids meals at fast food restaurants? For example, Dan Witkowski of MagiCom (I read an article on him in M A G I C at one time). I had a mentor (non-magic) at one time, who remembered learning magic from trading cards in packets of cigarettes decades ago. He remembered the slogan, "It's fun to be fooled, but it's more fun to know." - Donald P.S. BTW, I have nothing personal against Dan Witkowski.
Donald Dunphy is a Victoria Magician, British Columbia, Canada.
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mikemiller New user 18 Posts
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Look - here's the bottom line for me - it seems obvious that Eric is using YouTube to post video "teasers" to drive people to his site. Why do I say that - because he hosts other videos directly on his other web site apparently without the aid of YouTube. No one can dispute that he is exposing magic tricks by revealing how they are done in these teasers - that's ethically wrong and against the by-laws of every magic organization.
No one would even be having this discussion if he was simply performing a trick and then having visitors click through to his web site where they could purchase a DVD and learn for themselves how to perform the trick. There is a huge difference. |
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Posted: Sep 24, 2008 07:54 pm 
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