|
|
Go to page 1~2 [Next] | ||||||||||
C.W.G. Loyal user 275 Posts |
It has been said that if you ask 200 hypnotists to define what hypnosis is, that you would get 200 different answers, all of them contradicting the other, but all of them correct at the same time.
So in having said that, I wanna hear how you define hypnosis (not what you read in a book...). I'll start it off, to me hypnosis is nothing more than getting a person into a relaxed state of mind (depths vary) and getting them to focus on a suggestion that they already want to accept. I mean, if they are up on stage, it's because they want to be there and know what to expect, and if their in your clinic, they've already given you the suggestion that they want you to give back to them, as in they come in saying "I wanna stop biting my nails"... I wonder what suggestions you'll give 'em in that case then? Funny old business in my opinion. |
|||||||||
Anthony Jacquin Inner circle UK 2220 Posts |
I beg to differ with the idea that you are just giving suggestions they already want or expect.
Last week I was working with someone on a shoot in the park and for reason I will not go into now had cause to turn them into a Dog. We were filming and the director needed to make some comments and the team needed to change tapes etc. When working with a subject in this way, I often throw them back into hypnosis and just leave them there while the tech guys do their thing. It means we can all have open conversation about what we are going to do next in earshot of the subject who has been told they are not interested in outside sounds or conversation. He lay on the grass for a good 12 minutes having doggy dreams and occasionally scratching behind his ear, giving the odd yelp. No cameras to perform to, no audience to show off in front of, no good reason to do that. Hypnosis is a process of communication enabling the subjects mind to readily lock around and respond to any idea presented by a hypnotist. Anthony
Anthony Jacquin
Reality is Plastic! The Art of Impromptu Hypnosis Updated for 2016 Now on Kindle and Audible! |
|||||||||
Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
I agree with Anthony, so the premise of 200 and 200 different responces is flawed LOL.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
|||||||||
briandavidphillips Regular user 121 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-09-29 18:24, Finbarr Murray wrote: I disagree. Hypnosis does NOT require relaxation. I have performed eyes open hypnosis hundreds of times with no relaxation required. I've also been known to induce a few orgasms or more (with appropriate consenting adults) with no relaxation in the entire session. Actually, one can go the hyperempiria route and focus on more awareness and active sensations rather than relaxation. As to accepting suggestions they already want to accept . . . I disagree there too. I don't believe we're going to be violating deeply held values with most folks, at least not off the bat, but that doesn't mean all suggestions need be previously vetted or desired. What do I think hypnosis is . . . the definition I use is a combination of Elman and Gibbons and a whole lot of Phillips . . . hypnosis is an experiential state . . . "EXPERIENTIAL TRANCE . . . an altered state of consciousness or enhanced sensory hypnosis that is consensual guided intensified imaginative involvement to bypass the critical factor of the conscious mind and establish appropriate selective thinking via forms of influence and suggestion through formal and informal ritual induction procedures designed to create associative emotional and physical focus for particular purpose within variable contexts for entertainment, recreational, therapeutic and educational objectives." The key components of that definition: critical factor bypass and intensified imaginative involvement within an experiential context. All the best, Brian
Hypnosis DVD Courses
http://www.briandavidphillips.com Brian David Phillips brian@briandavidphillips.com Hypnotist, Trance Wizard, Intuitionist Keelung, Taiwan http://www.briandavidphillips.com |
|||||||||
C.W.G. Loyal user 275 Posts |
The reason I say that it's an idea they already want to accept is because if you give them a suggestion that is against their values they won't do it, e.g., they are not going to kill a person just because they are in hypnosis?
Plus, no matter who you are, you cant hypnotise a person that does not want to be hypnotised? Hypnotic states such as watching TV and daydreaming do not count here? I mean a full flat out hypnotic state. Any thoughts? |
|||||||||
Anthony Jacquin Inner circle UK 2220 Posts |
Finbarr,
you seem to be making an illogical leap between something you have read about not doing stuff against values - which isn't true anyway - and them only doing things they want to. My advice is test out your first assumption yourself by changing someones beliefs so their will takes them in the direction that will satisfy you they have done something they do not want to. Anthony
Anthony Jacquin
Reality is Plastic! The Art of Impromptu Hypnosis Updated for 2016 Now on Kindle and Audible! |
|||||||||
C.W.G. Loyal user 275 Posts |
Hey Tony,
Cheers for the input, I'm just finished my first month of my hypno/psychotherapy training (the books are all over the place!). That is what I have been lead to believe from everything that I have thus far read, that being said I have not had tons of experience with fully hypnotised subjects. So taking what you have said on board, are you telling me that you can 100% change a persons values and belief systems under hypnosis? What about the classic (and I know this is the extreme but...) having a person kill another person under hypnosis, or even commit sexual acts? How far can it be pushed and what evidence do we have? Thanks in advance. |
|||||||||
dmkraig Inner circle 1949 Posts |
Hi, Finbarr.
First, congratulations on taking training. If your training is only via books and vids, I would strongly urge you to consider taking an in-person training. I would contend that you can learn more in a few day during a good, in-person training than you can with weeks or months of studying books and videos. Together--in-person training AND books and videos--will help you (or anyone) achieve both knowledge and practical experience. I agree with Brian. Although relaxation often accompanies hypnosis, it is by no means necessary. My *guess* is that from your books you've been learning progressive relaxation inductions (relaxing each part of the body), so it is inevitable that many beginners equate the two. There simply isn't enough room here to give a course in hypnosis and hypnotherapy. However, the goal of such work is a change in behavior and/or beliefs. Curing phobias is an example of changing beliefs. Hypnotists help people change their behavior and beliefs all the time. Your statement that a person in hypnosis "already want[s] to accept [a suggestion] is because if you give them a suggestion that is against their values they wont do it," is almost accurate. I would contend that it's not that a person already wants to accept the suggestion, but rather, they have nothing against the suggestion. Let's say a person hates eating vegetables. He gives all sorts of reasons why (doesn't like the taste, texture, etc.). But using regression, you discover that when the person was very young, he saw someone almost choke to death on some vegies. Now, as a way of preserving his health and safety, a "part" of him causes him to hate vegetables and not eat them. Using parts therapy, a hypnotist might convince that "part" to change belief and behavior, actually encouraging the consumption of vegies. Note that this person had no notion of the real cause and couldn't know what was the cause of their limiting beliefs and behaviors. So there is no way the person could already be willing to accept suggestions because the person didn't even know the source of the problem. Good luck, and keep up the work! You're inquisitiveness and dedication is going to make you great at this. :applause: |
|||||||||
Anthony Jacquin Inner circle UK 2220 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-09-30 16:13, Finbarr Murray wrote: Great to hear about your training. Some good practical experience with hypnotised subjects would help things along at a quicker pace than any of your books. I have plenty of personal anecdotal evidence of changing peoples beliefs (that is the job) and values with hypnosis. No I do not have any evidence that I can make someone kill and do not wish to find out. However I am already certain it is as easy as making someones arm cataleptic. Aside from killing and sexual acts what would satisfy you that this barrier of values and beliefs had been crossed? How about using hypnosis to make someone steal data from a company? Or selling someones secrets that only moments before you had assured them, promised them would be held secure. Would either of those qualify? Anthony Anthony
Anthony Jacquin
Reality is Plastic! The Art of Impromptu Hypnosis Updated for 2016 Now on Kindle and Audible! |
|||||||||
C.W.G. Loyal user 275 Posts |
Dmkraig, thanks for the great post and the words of encouragement.
The course I'm doing is a home based diploma (theory), with one three hour practical session every week and a few weekends away here and there. The practical classes have been slow to get moving to be honest, watching lots of videos regarding surgeries performed under hypnosis etc. We just saw our first actual induction by the teacher tonight on one of our class members. The teacher is a bit of an arrogant ***, but is the leading hypnotic figure in Ireland (no kidding) and should be known in most hypnotic circles world wide (according to himself?). The course notes have not been updated since 1991 which is a bit crazy but they are still VERY in depth and fascinating. To answer your question Anthony, your last two examples would apply! I would love to see them, but why aren't they used more often in that kinda setting? Here is my problem with hypnosis at the moment.... For years I have been flat out astounded by the concept of hypnosis, and its only in the last few years that I have begun to get a real understanding of it, but it's when I read Derren Brown's take on the "social compliance" spin, plus what he wrote about the highly motivated subjects, that my view was altered. I still love hypnosis but now I'm looking at it from the angle that I want to be proved right about it, I want to see the impossible, I want to see definite phenomena that can't be questioned, but every now and then I see a "loophole" and feel a little let down by it? As a tool for therapy, I think it may be the greatest thing ever, in that you can get a subject relaxed and bypass the critical part of the mind that makes counseling the long drawn out process that it is. Analytical Hypnotherapy may just be the greatest therapeutic break through ever and I cant understand why western medicine hasn't seen it for what it is yet, baffles me. But as far as the "stage side" of hypnosis is concerned (barking like a dog etc) I just cant see the logic as to why that happens? Why would the subconscious issue those commands when they serve it no purpose? Ignoring pain, fine I can understand it doing that, forgetting something, also fine, it cant store everything and some of it the subconscious doesn't want to remember... But carrying out the stage acts...Just points to the person wanting to be in the limelight/social compliance through relaxation? Please don't flame me here, I'm looking for answers, not pointing fingers at people saying stage hypnosis doesn't exist! I'm sorry I'm rambling here.... Where's MP, Richard, John C, Willbox, Bobser and all the other usual suspects for this kind of post? |
|||||||||
Anthony Jacquin Inner circle UK 2220 Posts |
Finbarr,
well recently I have done the confessional/sell out for money effect. The subjects morals and ethics before being hypnotized involved the idea that he enjoyed secrets and considered himself good at keeping them. When hypnotized to believe he was being offered thousands of pounds to talk about something he had earlier been told in confidence he stuck by his guns. One suggestion later believing he needed money and didn't want to do it but had no choice he sold out. My advice is hypnotize someone then make yourself invisible and then when you click your fingers reappear in a puff of smoke. Then tell them their watch belongs to you, that they borrowed it a while back and it is time to give it back. Wake them up. Then tell them they are a liar an can only lie. Ask some questions. Then tell they they are a truth teller and can only tell the truth and ask some questions. Big stuff, secret stuff, things they have never told a soul. Clean up. Convince yourself. Don't get caught in the confusion caused by compliance theories. Be the Hypnotist. Surprise yourself. Spot those who seem to be great subjects on your course. When you get a chance to work with them push forward into some hypnotic phenomena that you haven't done yet. Big amnesia, physical phenomena, hallucinations, transfer of ownership, whatever. It will help you. Anthony
Anthony Jacquin
Reality is Plastic! The Art of Impromptu Hypnosis Updated for 2016 Now on Kindle and Audible! |
|||||||||
dmkraig Inner circle 1949 Posts |
Hi, Finbarr.
I have a great deal of respect for Darren--as a magician. I would point out that he uses claims and descriptions of hypnosis and NLP as background for (and nice misdirection for) magic tricks that have been around for years. I would suggest getting in touch with other members of the class and practicing on each other. At this point just do inductions and then bring each other out of trance. Reading and watching is one thing, actual practice, IMO, is the real way to learn what you're doing. The more people you can practice with the better. There are only two people I would suggest that you don't practice with: friends and family. They will see you as a friend or family member and not as a hypnotist. As a result, at this stage they are more difficult to hypnotize than someone who knows you only as a hypnotist (or hypnotist-in-training). That's why, for a stage hypnotist, perhaps the most important part of the act to assure success is the introduction! And speaking of stage hypnosis, why should someone be willing to bark like a dog? Because they have no reason not to do so. Because they want to have fun. Because the way the suggestions are worded they encourage the having of fun. For the same reason that people not in a trance (supposedly) paint their bodies and hoot and howl for their favorite sports team. |
|||||||||
bobser Inner circle 4178 Posts |
Finbarr, when you say: "I want to see the impossible, I want to see definite phenomena that can't be questioned" I and everyone else in here can understand that. The thing is,for me personally, I now know I had the wrong goal. Instead of wanting to SEE those things I should have been wanting to DO those things. I think I'm talking here about the difference of evidence versus actual proof.
I was smiling reading Ant's answer to you when he says (paraphrasing) "then why don't you go out and do it?" Annoying isn't he?(LOL)"I don't wanna see it I wanna do it" I hear you cry. But seriously his answer is simply brilliant. The next question for you now might be: "HOW?" Well, why not attend one of Ant's courses? he'll have you answering your own questions on the day. dmkraig's answer to your question about why someone would be willing to bark like a dog was because they would have no reason not to is probably the simplest yet best answer. Again infuriating huh? I asked a guy last week why screamed 'The Cambells are coming' each time I touched my nose. His reply was: "Because you told me to." The interesting thing was that as he was saying this he 'looked' like he was stating the obvious. Almost as if I had asked a foolish question. Interesting huh? bobser
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
|
|||||||||
C.W.G. Loyal user 275 Posts |
Thanks for the excellent responses guys,
Welcome Bobser! Now that your here, would you care to give us your definition? |
|||||||||
Anthony Jacquin Inner circle UK 2220 Posts |
Bobser,
it is always the same on training courses. Some 'get it' by being hypnotised and some by hypnotizing others. I often envy my hypnotic subjects abilities. Anthony
Anthony Jacquin
Reality is Plastic! The Art of Impromptu Hypnosis Updated for 2016 Now on Kindle and Audible! |
|||||||||
bobser Inner circle 4178 Posts |
I'm with you Ant as I would love to BE hypnotised but somehow have never been able to get there.
Finbarr, I don't think I'm as experienced as some others in here to answer the question and, to be honest, I see myself more as a student of this phenomena rather than a teacher. But one of the things I love about it is how it can give the recipient the power to shake off inhibitions and be the best they can be. I liken hypnosis to the blue pill in The Matrix: "what if you were to discovere that everything you've been told in your life was a lie?" (paraphrasing again). I simply find it fascinating. Of course when you find out entirely how and why something works it ceases to be fascinating so maybe (in this lifetime) I don't need to know the complete answer. Are we in truth 'lumbering robots'? bobser.
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
|
|||||||||
Nongard1 Special user 664 Posts |
I have been in Asia... just got back, finally over jetlag and now ready to read and post
I agree with BDP.... relaxation is an easy to understand and useful way to induce trance, but certainly not nescessary. In any stage show a high level of alertness is required, even tension or anxiety, to produce funny effects. I have been spending more and more time dwelling on the notion that this dichotomy between the consious and subconsious is really unhelpful and fragments our understanding of the wholeistic nature of the human mind... Here is a philosiphical statement: Hypnosis just IS. It doenst need to be explained, proven, demonstrated, understood, it is just part of our lives. And one person can manipulate (therapy or stage) that perpetual existance of trance in themselves or another person, but it still just IS. Richard
Dr. Richard Nongard, Professional Hypnosis Training
Learn how to master the art of SpeedTrance, Clinical and Stage Hypnosis |
|||||||||
mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts |
But its not really about therapy or stage hypnosis just is. Its how our minds work period
|
|||||||||
dmkraig Inner circle 1949 Posts |
Hi, Finbarr.
Bobser pointer out that you wrote: Quote:
I want to see the impossible, I want to see definite phenomena that cant be questioned Here's the thing: there is NO phenomena that occurs during hypnosis that does not occur outside of hypnosis. Positive and negative hallucinations all take place outside of formal hypnosis. Unusual physiological effects all occur outside of hypnosis. Such things may become more obvious during hypnosis. They may appear in someone who has not had them appear before. But they all can be done. Hypnosis is not a magic wand that produces miracles from nothing. It is a gateway that allows us to produce the miracles we have always been able to produce but haven't done so regularly previously. And I think that's really fantastic and amazing! |
|||||||||
dmkraig Inner circle 1949 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-10-03 11:54, bobser wrote: If anyone is questioning this, I will tell you that bobser is absolutely correct. I have seen this happen many times. I find it more than just interesting--it never ceases to astound me. Rather than concern myself over "why" this happens, I just accept that it does and make use of it. Of course, hypnotists are not the only ones to do so. Salespeople are taught to ask a potential customer to buy. It's called a "trial close." Many times a person who was either unsure about buying or not interested will buy because a salesperson asks them to do so. Often merely asking for a purchase is what make an ordinary person a highly successful salesperson. |
|||||||||
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » You are getting sleepy...very sleepy... » » How do 'you' define it? ... (0 Likes) | ||||||||||
Go to page 1~2 [Next] |
[ Top of Page ] |
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2024 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved. This page was created in 0.07 seconds requiring 5 database queries. |
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic. > Privacy Statement < |