We Remember The Magic Café We Remember
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Ever so sleightly » » Don Allen chop cup history? (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3 [Next]
Mad Jake
View Profile
Inner circle
All the voices in my head helped me make
2152 Posts

Profile of Mad Jake
Quote:
On 2008-10-08 16:47, Mobius303 wrote:
I was thinking the stubby was the same as the Mini Don...sorry about that....I always used to refer to it as a stubby little cup when I sold them in the shop.
I can see the difference and know it is not the same.
Mobius


When going through the old drawings,blueprints and other paperwork you would be suprised and how many mysterys were revealed with some cups that rolled out of the original Rings N Things. The Little Don was also refered to as the Pocket Don by some shops, but was officialy called the Mini Don Alan on the blueprints.

There are thousands of pages of information in this paperwork and most have proved to be most interesting from historcial standpoint in regards to the original 70's Rings N Things.
For quality Paul Fox Cups spun on Danny Dew's Paul Fox tooling visit us at www.airshipmagic.com
Bill Palmer
View Profile
Eternal Order
Only Jonathan Townsend has more than
24255 Posts

Profile of Bill Palmer
The company does have a colorful past!
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
Keith Mitchell
View Profile
Special user
796 Posts

Profile of Keith Mitchell
Any chance that there will be a new book written about the modern history of C&Bs, combined with ancient history? A lot of great information is being past around here in the Café, maybe all this information that has been provided by Bill Palmer, Jake, and others should be in print.

It would be great to have a NEW modern book on the history of C&B and Chop Cup written by different authors instead of just one author's viewpoint. This book could include ancient photos combined with new digital photos of present images, and of course there be several routines as well. Maybe the book should include DVDs for live action.

Have fun Folks!
Pete Biro
View Profile
1933 - 2018
18558 Posts

Profile of Pete Biro
Who has the Money to back this?
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
Mad Jake
View Profile
Inner circle
All the voices in my head helped me make
2152 Posts

Profile of Mad Jake
I can't speak for Bill, but Epiphany is working on a book for RNT II and a DVD.

Pete, I'm sure since we're a Coporation we could get some of the 700 billion for a bailout for a book release at least Smile
For quality Paul Fox Cups spun on Danny Dew's Paul Fox tooling visit us at www.airshipmagic.com
Tom Fenton
View Profile
Inner circle
Leeds, UK (but I'm Scottish)
1468 Posts

Profile of Tom Fenton
Hey Jake,

I'll buy Epiphany's book.

When you write to the government for a share in the 700 billion dollars, give 'em my name.
Then they can ignore both of us Smile
"But there isn't a door"
Bill Palmer
View Profile
Eternal Order
Only Jonathan Townsend has more than
24255 Posts

Profile of Bill Palmer
One of the great "new" things for people in the publishing business is lulu.com.

Although they are not capable of producing a Smyth-cased book which is bound in signatures, they are very capable of producing hardbacked perfect bound books. These are ideal for the short run publisher.

You can also finance a better quality book through sales of one like this. The best thing is that there is no inventory. It costs the publisher nothing, other than the photographs and the writing.

I just got through editing a book for Ed Solomon. We will have 50 hardbacks in a couple of weeks.
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
Pete Biro
View Profile
1933 - 2018
18558 Posts

Profile of Pete Biro
What is the subject matter? I have used a similar outfit to do a nice hard cover book of photos of the Teen challenge kids from last years' WMS. They provide free software called "booksmart" to layout the book, including dust jacket, etc. Find 'em at http://www.blurb.com

quality is awesome
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
BobMc
View Profile
Regular user
Philadelphia
148 Posts

Profile of BobMc
Quote:
On 2008-10-09 13:56, Bill Palmer wrote:
One of the great "new" things for people in the publishing business is lulu.com.


In fact I just bought Kent Gunn's Fun Shop cup routine from lulu.com
Bill Palmer
View Profile
Eternal Order
Only Jonathan Townsend has more than
24255 Posts

Profile of Bill Palmer
Quote:
On 2008-10-09 15:38, Pete Biro wrote:
What is the subject matter? I have used a similar outfit to do a nice hard cover book of photos of the Teen challenge kids from last years' WMS. They provide free software called "booksmart" to layout the book, including dust jacket, etc. Find 'em at http://www.blurb.com

quality is awesome


It's a collection of his stories. We are doing his complete works. This is volume 1. We printed out a couple of paperback copies for galley proofs, and now the hardbacks are on their way.
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
roy presto
View Profile
New user
6 Posts

Profile of roy presto
Refer Bill Palmer 7 Oct 2008. Ken Brookes Magic Place put out a 16 page foolscap mms titled THE KEN
BROOKE SYSTEM FOR THE CHOP CHOP CUP, page 2 states,inter alia, ''The two types of cup sold by THE
KEN BROOKE MAGIC PLACE are exact copies of the original cup and are sold with the full permission of
Mrs.Wheatley. It was the lady's request that I should put out a cup as good as Chops. I am thankful
for the permission she granted to me. If you possess the cup as sold by us you have the perfect replica.''
Bill Palmer
View Profile
Eternal Order
Only Jonathan Townsend has more than
24255 Posts

Profile of Bill Palmer
Unfortunately, they were not "exact copies" of the original Wheatley cups. Ken actually issued several different versions of the chop cup, as you can see if you visit the cups and balls museum. One of them was a plain aluminum beaker which he called the Highball Cup.

Al Wheatley died in 1964. Ken Brooke published a version of the Chop Cup in 1967, in which he never mentions any permission from Al Wheatley's widow at all. He does credit Larry Jennings with part of the sequence, though.

This routine later became the basis of the routine Ace Place published with their re-release of the routine.

A couple of edited versions of Ken's routine also appear in Ken Brooke's Magic which was published by Supreme. Again, no mention is made of any agreement with Charlene Wheatley over the production of the chop cups.

So, I'm somewhat puzzled about this apparent omission from the later versions of the instructions. I have several sets of instructions for this from Ken Brooke, and none of them mentions any kind of agreement for the cups at all.

Thanks for bringing this to my attention.
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
Pete Biro
View Profile
1933 - 2018
18558 Posts

Profile of Pete Biro
The other discrepancy in magic is the routine credited to Larry Jennings. It was really his friend, Ron Wilson, who devised that routine. And sadly not credited with the use of a silk to cover the load was the creation of Bob Stencel.

Was it not Harry Stanley that sold the "highball cup" (I have several made in leather from Stanley's. Ken was working for Stanley to make money to PAY OFF those involved in his bankruptcy. In the U.K., when you declare bankruptcy you CANNOT start another business until you pay off all debts. As soon as Ken was clear of debt he left Stanley and with Frank Farrow opened Ken Brooke's magic place. Interestingly, it is my signature on their contract as a "witness."
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
Bill Palmer
View Profile
Eternal Order
Only Jonathan Townsend has more than
24255 Posts

Profile of Bill Palmer
It could be. I'll have to check the instructions that came with the Highball Cup.

A lot of the credits on the cup were obscured by various sloppy events. For example, I have a "Don Alan Chop Cup" routine that was published prior to the one by Magic, Inc.
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
Lawrence O
View Profile
Inner circle
Greenwich (CT)
6799 Posts

Profile of Lawrence O
Since we are at crediting past geniuses, there was a Chop Cup routine in print way before Al Wheatley's performance of his routine in 1954. Fred Lodge had already published "A Novel Cup And Ball Effect" p. 26 in a Scottish typescript "The Mysteries of the Mystic Seven" in 1936. It presented a short routine with two cups one of them being what we now call a "Chop cup" (named after Chop Chop Aka Al Wheatley. Thus Fred Lodge did not only come up with the first Chop cup but also with the first "Combo cups".

Similarly few people credit (and this is a good place to remind it IMHO) that Fred G. Taylor was, apparently the first one to publish a routine based on an outer side mag*** (Hugard’s Magic Monthly Vol XVIII N° 1 June 1960 p 1). He was then followed in these tracks by the French Duraty "Magie pour les amis" (different principle, different routine). We should also mention here the fabulous forgoten idea of William Zavis pubished in Divers Deceipts where the secret tool is placed at two third of his wand.

My reason for mentioning this, is that the chop cup as a pre-gimmicked cup may soon become out dated by side mag*** including the recent PK rings. Lack of proper credit would be particularly unfair since in The Magician Monthly, vol. 28, N°12, Sept 1932, page 114 under the title of "A Street Conjurer of Calcutta" (therefore way before A Wheatley) an Indian magicien by the name of Ajit Krishna Basu published for the very first time the idea of using a side mag*** for a one cup routine.
Magic is the art of proving impossible things in parallel dimensions that can't be reached
Bill Palmer
View Profile
Eternal Order
Only Jonathan Townsend has more than
24255 Posts

Profile of Bill Palmer
And there is also the mention of the use of tallow or wax in Ozanam.

This is very interesting. Do you know if these fellows ever marketed any of these items?
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
Lawrence O
View Profile
Inner circle
Greenwich (CT)
6799 Posts

Profile of Lawrence O
No I know they didn't market any of them. Ajit Krishna Basu had a sort of crude PK ring that he was applying against the bottom of a cup (no routine explained, just the concept). Al Wheatley however travelled to Isle of Man to visit Findlay, the great collector and scholar, and even though there is no evidence, there is a real possibility that Al got a tip from Findlay who knew well about the Fred Lodge idea since he was a member of the Mystic Seven.

The pork fat and wax is also in Alberti's I giochi numerici fatti arcani palesati da Giuseppe-Antonio Alberti Bolognese, and in Carlo Antonio's Trésor des Jeux.

Along the same lines you may have mentioned, among the ancestors of the Chop cup, the spikes or grater in the cups of the Little Man with no arms and legs that I'm sure you know of.
Magic is the art of proving impossible things in parallel dimensions that can't be reached
Bill Palmer
View Profile
Eternal Order
Only Jonathan Townsend has more than
24255 Posts

Profile of Bill Palmer
I didn't know that Wheatley visited Findlay. That possibility extends the history of the chop cup quite a bit. I think the breakthrough was one of technology, though. The advent of the higher powered mag*** during the 1940's made this a much more feasible item.

I ran across the "spikes" gimmick in a couple of other references as well.

I also found an Italian magic book from 1933, that appears to be another book copied from earlier sources, called Magia, Prestigio e Giuohi di Famiglia. The author is not given, but there is an introduction by C. Causa. There is a brief overview of Bosco's routine as well as others.
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
Pete Biro
View Profile
1933 - 2018
18558 Posts

Profile of Pete Biro
Once again... there is NOTHING NEW. I thought I invented the M 1/3 up in a wand. And then a gag where I stumble and fall carrying on a set of linking rings, and when I get up one of the rings has pierced my cheek. And I find that in Discouverie of W.

Hah...
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
roy presto
View Profile
New user
6 Posts

Profile of roy presto
It's been great going down memory lane with Pete Biro and Lawrence. Actually Jimmy Findlay resided in Isle of Wight. My wife and I had the pleasure of staying with Jimmy in 1953 at his Firbank Hotel,Crescent Road,Shanklin .I.O.W.
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Ever so sleightly » » Don Allen chop cup history? (0 Likes)
 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3 [Next]
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2020 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.14 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL