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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
Has anyone here actually suffered provable loss of work or other damages from exposure of magic on television?
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
I lost about 4 minutes of my time before I could find the remote to change the channel, does that count?
I mean I can always make more money, but man how can I ever get that time back? I may indeed sue.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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gaddy Inner circle Agent of Chaos 3526 Posts |
I think exposure is stupidity on the part of the exposer, and wrong in the eyes of magic as a whole.
That being said, I must confess that I've never personally been provably hurt by the exposing of magic.
*due to the editorial policies here, words on this site attributed to me cannot necessarily be held to be my own.*
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Josh Riel Inner circle of hell 1995 Posts |
Nope. I still don't like it, but no.
However you were asking for people who have been. I am not helpful.
Magic is doing improbable things with odd items that, under normal circumstances, would be unnessecary and quite often undesirable.
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
I think everyone on the Café knows my position on exposure. Those that don't will not remember the battle of 2004 over the Pendragons' support of the Ouatagamie County Museum and its exposure of the Houdini material, or my 2005 appearance on the radio in London during the Centenary.
Most of the current crop won't remember when I put Valentino's photo on my web site as the actual Masked Magician, 72 hours after the first broadcast -- without repercussions. However, I realized that even though I was, and still am, dead set against exposure, it has done no permanent damage to any of my shows, either. So, I figured I would find out who has been injured and who hasn't. I've heard that a couple of guys who did the Zig-zag and the Grant's escape crate had to take them out of their shows for about a month or so, but that seems to be it. So, I guess we can carry on.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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Ken Northridge Inner circle Atlantic City, NJ 2392 Posts |
Provable loss? No. I had to take out a feature part of my act (The Linking Rings) for about a year.
Quote:
On 2008-10-11 02:12, Bill Palmer wrote: I couldn’t have said it better. Quote:
On 2008-10-11 02:12, Bill Palmer wrote: Really? How did you know at such an early stage? Quote:
On 2008-10-11 01:31, Dannydoyle wrote:
"Love is the real magic." -Doug Henning
www.KenNorthridge.com |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
I don’t think one would know or could prove this but I think exposure has more of an indirect impact than direct. The secrets of magic are a main part of its attraction to the public and once the public “think” they know the secrets through exposure, then audiences numbers will surely drop. All magicians would lose work as a group. In other words exposure makes magic less popular with the public.
Its difficult for an individual magician to prove this sort of indirect impact. Some pro might be able to explain that better than me as am an amateur. If lets say some one went on TV and said this is how card magic is done, and showed some sleights, I might not use them particular sleights, but damage is in the public thinking oh that’s how it’s all done is it! Then card magic loses their interest somewhat.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Bill Nuvo Inner circle 3094 Posts or 2742 Posts |
Hasn't affected my business at all (that I can tell). I've had people hire me after seeing the MM shows. I've also had some of the same people comment to me that they were too busy enjoying themselves to think "how was he doing that" or "was that on the show". It didn't matter.
I will say this though, that I have noticed a slight change SOMETIMES in the perception of clients when they do book you. Their preliminary idea is to book you for the kiddies and not for the adults (we've seen the shows). This was usually only for a few months after the shows and died down. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Tommy, once people "think" they know, they become something else entirley. EASY TO FOOL!
They will always be thinking of the one method they know, and when you do it witn another, they are REALLY taken by suprise. That being said I do not believe anyone is arguing FOR exposure and certainly NOT BILL. But the point I believe is that in the long run it really is not hurtful to many. I think the guys who do magic poorly do more harm than those who expose on purpose.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Steve_Mollett Inner circle Eh, so I've made 3006 Posts |
Hasn't affected me a bit.
Author of: GARROTE ESCAPES
The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth. - Albert Camus |
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JackScratch Inner circle 2151 Posts |
The real damage done by exposure, isn't to us. It's done to the viewing audience, and anyone they might subject any other unwitting person to. You can't really un-know something, once you have learned it. The farther behind the curtain you have seen, the less you can really enjoy the show, until you are actually a performer, and even then, it's not the same, it's just a different type of enjoyment. Magic requires two elements: An entertainer, and an audience. The vast wasteland between being one of those and the other, is a horrible, desolate, place, where there is no magic.
That's who exposure hurts, and I have no clue how anyone could ever put a monitary value on that. |
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Don Faith New user Canada 84 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-10-11 19:03, JackScratch wrote: I cannot agree with you more.Vg post. Quote:
On 2008-10-11 02:12, Bill Palmer wrote: Thank you very much Bill Palmer I thoroughly respect your endeavors and I have admiration to you for your attempts to stop exposure. As many of the other magi’s here at the Café and from around the world, I myself detest such an immoral action caused by magic sl-ts. I apologize for using such a term, but I view exposure as watching my mother get raped in front of my children. We all know the work that the inventors put into such awe inspiring visual entertainment, only to have it pilferaged for the sake of the almighty buck at the audiences, invertors and magicians expense. Although I can not say that that exposure has hit me in the pocket book (heck! I'm still struggling)I will say a huge thank you to Harbin for creating such a wonderful illusion as the zz, The day after it was exposed we performed it for a large audience, nervous as heck! We still received a huge applause and I will not accept the pats on the back. It was all Harbins work worthy of the kudos Thanks RH Not sure if I explained myself properly or not but the harm was done in other ways, Hopefully one day this exposure thing will end and we will honor the future generations of all those involved in this precious art. Best, DF |
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Father Photius Grammar Host El Paso, TX (Formerly Amarillo) 17161 Posts |
The way my act was done, didn't hurt me one bit. I have always pretty much done comedy magic, and the tricks are props. People enjoy the magic, seeing it done, not how it is done. Even if they know how it is done, they enjoy the routine.
If knowing how it is done so ruins it, then why do so many magicians like watching magic?
"Now here's the man with the 25 cent hands, that two bit magician..."
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Payne Inner circle Seattle 4571 Posts |
Nope, haven't suffered a single loss nor have had to remove a single trick.
I was doing linking rings a week after the first program aired for people who had watched it and still fooled the socks off of them with the effect. If you really think about it it is a tempest in a teapot. The first show had the best ratings of all of them and even those numbers were nothing to get worked up about. If I remember right it would have meant that out of every audience of a hundred people maybe one or two might have seen the show. For those kind of numbers it's not worth worrying about nor pulling illusions from one program.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
I gotta say one time at Schuliens I was about to do a cigarette vanish with a TT.
Right as I am about to do it someone asks out of the blue about a TT! I use a plastic one for scarfs and a rubber one for cigaretts at the bar. Nothing worse than a reappearing scarf, dirty with ash! Well I pull out the TT for the scarf, and say "you mean this thing?" I then go on to explain how they work for kids tricks but no reasonable adult could POSSIBLY be fooled by such a method. I mean look how fake it is and does not match and such. REALLY selling it. I then procede with the cigarette routine as per usual with the TT. The audience happy in their knowlege that they could NEVER be fooled by such a method LOL. I almost wanted to show them! Ever have someone try to tell you a joke who is not a performer? They remember about most of it and fill in the rest. Same thing happens when they see how illusions are done. Few if any remember 100% of how it works, and even fewer remember for extended periods of time. I am not saying exposure is good, quite the contrary. I am saying though it can be dealt with easier than drawing attention to it, and running scared and thinking somehow our audiences are cheated. I mean is it the "magic" which entertains them or is it us? For me to buy the idea that they are cheated, I am removed from the equasion almost completly. I mean I know how each and every trick Mac King does is acomplished, but he entertains the hell out of me EVERY time I see him. Which is a lot by the way. Same with Michael Finney, and a host of other magicians, musicians, dancers, singers, and so forth.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Josh Riel Inner circle of hell 1995 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-10-11 21:40, Don Faith wrote: .... What? Exposure sucks, but were making stupid little balls disappear in stupid little ways. I suggest we might want reconsider our stance when we go completely cuckoo.
Magic is doing improbable things with odd items that, under normal circumstances, would be unnessecary and quite often undesirable.
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-10-11 19:03, JackScratch wrote: Oh, bull. How many non-magicians do you think actually watch that piece of cr@p? Drew, I did not have to change one thing in my show because of the masked magician. BTW, I just got the news from an indisputable source that Valentino is still doing the honors as the Masked Magician. He has put on a lot of weight, and that has added to his natural bumblingness. Quote:
On 2008-10-11 07:48, Ken Northridge wrote: You may think that the Magic Café is the be-all, end-all gossip fence, but there was a group back during Val's first festering attempt who was called the PMWR. We contacted each other via e-mail like crazy when this thing went down. One of the members knew the fellow who rented Valentino the elephant. I double-checked the info, and knew that he was right. Re: Taking tricks out of the act. And the spectator whose life has been ruined (sniff, sniff, whine) by having to live in that dark place where there is no magic. Taking tricks out of the act. Three days after Valentino 1, I had a show for Roadway Express. I was setting up the show, and a truck driver walked in early, sat down next to the stage and said, "I know how all of those tricks are done. I saw that Masked Magician guy the other night. I'm going to catch all of your tricks." I smiled and said, "Wasn't that cheesy? You know that he was really pulling everyone's leg. Nobody would use a frk lift to do a levitation!" He said, "You know, you are probably right. That is pretty cheesy." BTW, I did the linking rings that show. Fooled all of 'em. RE: That cold, dark, place with no magic. Our job is to suspend disbelief. If you can't do that, take up macrame for Pete's sake. So, someone exposes the TT. Big deal. I've walked into magic shops where there were TT's on display with "Cigarette through Handkerchief" on the rack pack. Does that mean that I can't do any trick with a TT? Hell no! Occasionally at a party, some jerk will come up to me with a TT and a wrinkled rag, and begin to do the routine for me. I wait until he has finished, then I take him aside and show him how to do it right. I fool him with his own props. Why? Well, he already has the props. So why not show him how to do it without looking like an ad for some kind of arthritis medication? Not only that, he begins to have some respect for magic, because he realizes that it's not just about having the toys. It's about knowing how to make it look like magic.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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JackScratch Inner circle 2151 Posts |
Bill, those who don't know you may be a bit confused as to what your position and/or goal is here.
Main Entry: suspension of disbelief Part of Speech: phr Definition: a willingness to suspend one's critical faculties and believe the unbelievable; sacrifice of realism and logic for the sake of enjoyment Etymology: coined by Samuel Taylor Coleridge Magicians do not suspend disbelief, audiences do. |
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MickeyPainless Inner circle California 6065 Posts |
A year or so ago my assistant saw a CA show that exposed the salt shaker through the table. A couple days later I pulled out a shot glass and a quarter and told her I would make the .25 go through the table........ I did the same routine as salt shaker but with different props and some different framing and she was blown away!
Mick |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-10-12 12:05, JackScratch wrote: Oh no Drew, magicians supspend disbelief constantly. Watch a poor magician do a zombi, watch a bad magician do a show. They are suspending the disbelief on WAY more levels than the audeince. It is the reason for SO many 45 phase ambitious card, and oil and water routines. They suspend it FAR more than an average audience.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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